D&D 5E Move Attack Move: Issues with The New Standard for Combat

[ExploderWizard]

So it seems like adding a movement cost of 1 for each allied square passed through (and the inability to end in an occupied space as usual) should decrease the conga line effect while still permitting split movement.

 

[Mistwell]

For what it is worth, lots of "other stuff" was happening during this combat. The wizard was casting spells past the fighter at the Duerger, some PCs were firing missile weapons past the fighter, the Cleric was healing the fighter and Blessing the party, there was fear the Duerger were circling back around to hit the party from the other side of their room so there was guarding of that door, etc..

So it was a dynamic encounter, and fun. But the fighter player did raise an eyebrow at essentially having the effect of "being surrounded" even though he had only left one single space open to the enemy at what should have been a choke point. He expected a few attacks, mostly missile weapons, but did not expect a horde of melee attacks (a couple of which were multi-attack two attacks from one combatant).

 

[I'm A Banana]

The problem is that the simple tactic of using a choke point is rendered irrelevant by the free and easy movement of the opponents.

That's not really the case though. The person at the front still stops the bad guys from getting to the squishies. They can't get around him, so they have to try and go through him. That part seems fine. The point that seems to be a problem is that going through him is something they can all do at once without allowing a response. That's an initiative problem.

They all get to act between each turn the fighter gets, and that brings out pretty much the same result. In reality, the fighter's friends in the room behind him would get to act in some way to mitigate the situation by casting a spell, doing their own conga-line, etc.; but say the fighter was protecting some lost orphans or some such. Now it doesn't really matter if all the opponents go on one initiative or not.

The orphans can take their actions to run away, right? And if you give these guys axes they can chuck while standing stock-still, you've got the same problem. Again, 4e solos serve a useful comparison: it is not hard to get overwhelmed when all of your enemies go and you don't get a response.

Normally, the focus fire tactic of the opponents would be perfectly acceptable and viable tactic to use, but one would expect the narrow choke point situation to reduce the effectiveness of this approach.

I dunno, when I imagine holding a choke point against a raging tide of enemies, or standing in front of a a firing squad, you are subject to a bunch of attacks. Tough characters (like most fighters) should be able to whether that storm, but the storm still should happen, right?

 

[Mistwell]

So it seems like adding a movement cost of 1 for each allied square passed through (and the inability to end in an occupied space as usual) should decrease the conga line effect while still permitting split movement.

Yes.

 

[DMZ2112]

For what it's worth, while I've never sat down and done the math, I've always felt like both split move and attacks of opportunity ought to be universal. Move after your attack and put some distance between you and your opponent, but risk an immediate injury; stand your ground and keep your opponent busy, but remain in harm's way.

Just parsing it out like that makes it sound like maybe what I want is a system where everyone gets split moves and multiple attacks of opportunity (Dex mod?), but attacks of opportunity are always made at a penalty? Perhaps disadvantage? Perhaps the fighter has an ability that gives him advantage on attacks of opportunity, negating the penalty?

Just kind of spitballing.

 

[Plaguescarred]

This scenario do require proper numbers (2+), location (large room proximity to 5' corridor), positioning (lone creature in corridor) and timing (all one side winning initiative) for it to work as it did.

Being within 25 feet or less of enemy (assuming a speed of 30 feet) means they can move up to you, attack and retreat but it only becomes a position of disadvantage if you are stuck with the rest of your party not able to do the same. But terrain and tactics do that, giving an advantage and often the best way to not expose yourself to it is to retreat further back to regroup.

I think Breaking Up A Move does much more good than bad even with this corner cases. It increase mobility significantly and makes combat more fluid as a result. Now you can move, open a door (or take any other action) and continue moving for exemple, which has never been possible before. Things seems to flow more naturally in gameplay.

I wouldn't be against the proposed rule of moving into occupied space counting as difficult terrain and taking 5 extra feet of movement to do so. But that would reduce this mobility and fluidity because of corner case and i am not sure its really necessary as its not something that happen frequently, requiring many factors to line up at the right place and time.

 

[Halivar]

I do group initiative for monsters, and here's how I plan to handle to the "fighter in the gap" scenario (mentioned either in this thread or the other): groups on the same initiative will perform all pre-action moves first, then all actions, and then all post-action moves. Thus you don't have the infinite orc train swapping places in front of the fighter to attack him. Only one gets to.

 

[Plaguescarred]

Why this encounter was started that much close to one another (10 feet) though? Why the fighter, who's leading the party, was started 10 feet away when he was seeing the duergars at least from 25+ feet away? According to the DM Guideline (pg. 09) encountering creature in a dungeon could have been as much as 1d20+20 feet for exemple. Seems to me like they became aware of each other farther away than this illustrate.

Encounter Distance: Typically, the terrain or layout of an area determines how far the characters are from creatures when the groups become aware of each other. If this distance isn’t predetermined, roll a d20 + 20. The resulting number is the distance in feet between the two groups at the start of their encounter.

 

[Mistwell]

I do group initiative for monsters, and here's how I plan to handle to the "fighter in the gap" scenario (mentioned either in this thread or the other): groups on the same initiative will perform all pre-action moves first, then all actions, and then all post-action moves. Thus you don't have the infinite orc train swapping places in front of the fighter to attack him. Only one gets to.

I get it...but it doesn't really work that way with individual initiative, so why would they be punished for going all on one count?

Let's say this is the party initiative:

Duerger 1: 20
Duerger 2:18
Fighter: 16
Duerger 3: 15
Cleric: 14
Thief: 12
Duerger 4: 10
Duerger 5: 8
Duerger 6: 7
Wizard: 3
Duerger: 7

All of Cleric, Thief, and Wizard stay in their rooms. They may fire at the Duerger, they may just heal the Fighter or guard the other door.

So Duerger 1 goes in, attacks, goes out, takes an attack of opportunity for it.
Duerger 2 goes in, attacks, goes out.
Fighter moves in, attacks, moves back to his spot.
Duerger 3, 4,5, 6, 7 all move in, attack, move back out. Duerger 3 did take an attack of opportunity this time, but that's it for those until the fighter's turn comes back around again.
Top of initiative again, Duergers 1 and 2 again move in, attack, and move back out again, no attacks of opportunity this time.
Fighter's turn, etc.. And from here on out the only opportunity attacks are against just the guy who goes right after the Fighter's initiative.

See, individual initiative doesn't really change anything except when the attack of opportunity happens (and as almost all these Duerger are virtually identical to each other, that's not really important). Why would rolling all initiative at one time be treated differently (in a notably worse result for the Duerger) than rolling individually?

 

[Mistwell]

Why this encounter was started that much close to one another (10 feet) though? Why the fighter, who's leading the party, was started 10 feet away when he was seeing the duergars at least from 25+ feet away? According to the DM Guideline (pg. 09) encountering creature in a dungeon could have been as much as 1d20+20 feet for exemple. Seems to me like they became aware of each other farther away than this illustrate.

There is a door you're not seeing. They were each aware of the other well before the encounter. The Duerger's knew the party was coming (spied them through a peep hole earlier, and gathered together waiting for them), and the party was aware the Duerger were back there (heard them at the door, and knew from other clues they would likely be there). They opened the door to the passageway, and a horde of Duerger were seen on the other side. Fighter's actual first move was to move in, attack, and move back to that spot in the corridor, as the rest of the party took up positions behind him to fire down the corridor or hold the door or heal the fighter.

I'm really not understanding the repeated questioning of the scenario. Just take the example as stated. It happens, others have said it has happened to them as well, accept the scenario and let's talk about the rules.