D&D 5E Move Attack Move: Issues with The New Standard for Combat

[The Crimson Binome]

It only seems like a "dancing line" because D&D is turn-based while at the same time assuming things happen simultaneously.

Right, and if D&D wasn't turn-based, then you'd get seven duergar rushing to the end of the hallway nigh-simultaneously, which is physically impossible.

 

[Vyvyan Basterd]

Right, and if D&D wasn't turn-based, then you'd get seven duergar rushing to the end of the hallway nigh-simultaneously, which is physically impossible.

A mob of duergar in a 5-foot-wide hallway? Not impossible. A mob of 5'x5'x5' gelatinous cubes certainly. And under the previous 2 editions rules if you made this a mob instead of individual duergar they most certainly would be able to do just what you deem 'physically impossible.' Like I said, I don't like the idea of making a choke point less valuable, but the "dancing duergar" or "5-foot-cube duergar" are only problems of game-physics, not actual physical in-game limitations.

Edit: Even by current game-physics it would be possible, as the seven duergar sharing the square attacking the fighter will not end their turns in the same square. Perfectly RAW.

 

[DMZ2112]

Not that I agree with the way they've designed this, but it wouldn't be a "dancing line" necessarily. It could be to model that a mob of duergar can move in en masse to attack the fighter, while he only effectively gets to swing at one as the mob backs off. It only seems like a "dancing line" because D&D is turn-based while at the same time assuming things happen simultaneously.

That does help, but there's more to the visual issue -- how much of a mob can effectively swing a sword in a doorway? I just can't see it.

 

[the Jester]

That does help, but there's more to the visual issue -- how much of a mob can effectively swing a sword in a doorway? I just can't see it.

Measure out a 5'x5' square and see how many people you can get in there at once.

 

[The Crimson Binome]

Edit: Even by current game-physics it would be possible, as the seven duergar sharing the square attacking the fighter will not end their turns in the same square. Perfectly RAW.

The problem is that game physics don't line up with our expectations based on real-world physics. A duergar is four feet tall and three feet wide, and there's a physical limit to how many of those can flawlessly swing their axe within a five-foot-cube without trampling each other, even when you give them a six-second window of time to act within.

Going back to distinct move and action phases, without breaking up your move, is a better way of modeling turn-based combat. The first duergar gets right in next to the fighter, and then can't negotiate her way past the six other duergar in the hallway, because there's combat going on and you need room to maneuver.

 

[DMZ2112]

Measure out a 5'x5' square and see how many people you can get in there at once.

That's really the crux of my point. If we accept as nonsense the idea that one man can exert combat control over 25 square feet of space, the theater of the mind starts to break down. Like a lot of these approximations we make for the sake of gameplay, doorways aren't actually 5' wide, but even if we're talking about a 5'-wide side corridor, or broad arch, then I'd say generously you could get three duergar into melee with the fighter before they were considered flatfooted because of a lack of mobility. Maybe two duergar, because of body proportions.

As soon as those two start switching out with their friends in the crowd behind them, duergar start to die. By the same token, in a 5' wide gap one of those duergar could easily occupy the fighter while more duergar carefully sidle around him.

Personally I use the equation 'X feet/5 = Y meters' when I run D&D numbers, and use a tabletop scale of 1" = 1 meter for miniature combat. It eliminates a lot of these questions for me by taking up nearly all of the empty-space slack.

 

[Vyvyan Basterd]

The problem is that game physics don't line up with our expectations based on real-world physics. A duergar is four feet tall and three feet wide, and there's a physical limit to how many of those can flawlessly swing their axe within a five-foot-cube without trampling each other, even when you give them a six-second window of time to act within.

Caveat: I'm going off of Mike's "feature, not a bug" statement. A mass of duergar doesn't need to "flawlessly swing" their axe. The mob tactics mean they are pressing in and swinging away. Think of scenes of a mass of zombies attacking in a tight hallway. This isn't Duelling Duergar lining up one-by-one to take their shot, it's the Mob Chaos that makes their attack effective.

I'm still with others that I'd rather see one attack of opportunity per duergar trying this tactic. But I have no problem envisioning the abstract tight-hallway mob combat going on.

 

[Mistwell]

I raised the issue with Mearls on Twitter. Bottom line, he will think about it and raise the issue with the Dev team, but he justifies the rule. Sorry for the poor formatting, no time to go back through and do it right. This is in reverse order, and my questions are not shown just his answers. My questions are in the quote at the bottom.

Mike Mearls ‏@mikemearls 6h

[MENTION=13310]Yeti[/MENTION]Moose for instance - putting a few melee guys just inside the room to block a hallway works better now that in past editions.
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Mike Mearls ‏@mikemearls 6h

[MENTION=13310]Yeti[/MENTION]Moose regarind the example - it does require some rethinking of tactics.
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Mike Mearls ‏@mikemearls 6h

[MENTION=13310]Yeti[/MENTION]Moose that's a good point - I'll bring it up with the designers
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Mike Mearls ‏@mikemearls 6h

[MENTION=32418]Wolfhunter[/MENTION]83 Yes, they won't be hard and fast formulas (nothing in an RPG is that simple) but we'll give advice and guidelines
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Mike Mearls ‏@mikemearls 6h

[MENTION=13310]Yeti[/MENTION]Moose besides, remember that these guys have to move away to leave room and you can't end your move in the same space as an ally
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Mike Mearls ‏@mikemearls 6h

[MENTION=13310]Yeti[/MENTION]Moose It's an abstraction - by the rules, if you line up enough people you can transport a package hundreds of miles in 6 seconds
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Mike Mearls ‏@mikemearls 6h

[MENTION=69891]barthen[/MENTION]nigan [MENTION=13310]Yeti[/MENTION]Moose IMC, gobs back off, PC wizard walked up, burning hands 2/3 of the goblins w/o oppy, moved back behind fighter
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Mike Mearls ‏@mikemearls 7h

[MENTION=69891]barthen[/MENTION]nigan [MENTION=13310]Yeti[/MENTION]Moose OTOH, the monsters that hit & run are giving the characters a lot more options than if they pack in close.

Mike Mearls ‏@mikemearls 7h

[MENTION=13310]Yeti[/MENTION]Moose Wait... how is that unrealistic? Wouldn't you hit and run if you could, especially against a superior foe?

Mark Cronan &#8207 [MENTION=13310]Yeti[/MENTION]Moose 6h

@mikemearls It's an unnecessary abstraction though. Again, it should be harder to pass through the same spot someone else is occupying.
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Mark Cronan &#8207 [MENTION=13310]Yeti[/MENTION]Moose 7h

@mikemearls A solution would be to make passing through ally's space be difficult terrain.
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Mark Cronan &#8207 [MENTION=13310]Yeti[/MENTION]Moose 7h

@mikemearls Here is an actual example, most of those Duerger attacked the fighter, despite the chokepoint. http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7223/13469706443_3e82541279_b.jpg …
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Mark Cronan &#8207 [MENTION=13310]Yeti[/MENTION]Moose 7h

@mikemearls So in 6 seconds, 20 creatures occupy the same tight corridor at same time? Walls are meaningless, and you're always surrounded?
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Mark Cronan &#8207 [MENTION=13310]Yeti[/MENTION]Moose 8h

@mikemearls We've found issues w/ move-atk-move rule. Can't hold narrow corridor. Foes unrealistically conga-line atks.Working as intended?

 

[Sage Genesis]

In 4e we ruled that if all the monsters go on the same initiative, each one still counts as having his own turn, so the fighter would get the OA against each one.

Pretty sure that's how it actually works. Sharing the same initiative count doesn't mean the monsters only have one single turn - if it did, then they'd have only one standard action, one move action, and one minor action to share between all of them.

 

[Sunseeker]

That's really the crux of my point. If we accept as nonsense the idea that one man can exert combat control over 25 square feet of space, the theater of the mind starts to break down. Like a lot of these approximations we make for the sake of gameplay, doorways aren't actually 5' wide, but even if we're talking about a 5'-wide side corridor, or broad arch, then I'd say generously you could get three duergar into melee with the fighter before they were considered flatfooted because of a lack of mobility. Maybe two duergar, because of body proportions.

As soon as those two start switching out with their friends in the crowd behind them, duergar start to die. By the same token, in a 5' wide gap one of those duergar could easily occupy the fighter while more duergar carefully sidle around him.

Personally I use the equation 'X feet/5 = Y meters' when I run D&D numbers, and use a tabletop scale of 1" = 1 meter for miniature combat. It eliminates a lot of these questions for me by taking up nearly all of the empty-space slack.

Exerting control over a 5x5 square, especially when there are walls on two sides to cause chokepoints, is pretty easy.

The average male is around 5'8". The length from finger-tip to finger-tip is almost the same as your height. So the average knight standing in the center of a 5' box will be able to reach 4 inches beyond the edge of that box. A longsword has a blade of 3 to 3.5 feet, and a handle of at least 6". If we say that the last six inches of the arm and the first 6 inches of the sword overlap, then Bob the fighter has an effective reach of 5' in BOTH directions. He can easily exert control over the 2.5 feet on either side of him and it will certainly be difficult for anyone to get past him.