Move Silently Question

[IceBear]

Ok, i finally checked the PHB instead of the SRD only...

p.71
Move Silently: "You can move up to one-half your normal speed at no penalty. At more than one-half and up to your full speed, you suffer a -5 penalty. It's practically impossible (-20 penalty) to move silently while running or charging".

It NEVER mentions what happens if you move "more than your speed and up to double your speed = hustle", BECAUSE I really believe it's talking about moving in one MEA, not one round.

ch.8 (Combat)
This chapter always talks about "moving", and always refers to Speed = how much you can move at most with a MEA

p.142
In the Movement paragraph, when talking about "Local movement" it actually NEVER mention "MOVING", but instead clearly say either "walking", "hustling" or "running". Although there is a Walk speed listed for "Tactical movement", it also says that "Characters generally don't walk in combat: they hustle or run".

Well... don't want to sound too academic, but when it talks about "moving" it seems to refer to tactical combat, and in tactical combat it always refers to move = hustle = up to your Speed per MEA.

Hope this doesn't mess up the thread even more

Nope, that's exactly how I feel too

IceBear

 

[Rel]

P.S. Ha! Rel, I replied before you could snipe me for non-response. Thanksgiving holidays sort of limited my computer time, but I'm back now.

No you didn't, pal. Look at the first paragraph of my post up there. You're busted, I say!

Ice Bear - I vaguely recall from my AD&D days that the text you are referring to might be the 1E method of explaining why character movement rate "per turn" was measured in inches (each inch equivalent to 10' I think). For example, an unencumbered Thief could move 12" (120 feet) on the map each turn (which was I believe 10 minutes). The explanation for this snail's pace movement was that the party was moving cautiously, checking for traps and doing their best to gain surprise on anybody they ran into (i.e. Moving Silently).

So I guess if we take that into account, we should feel absolutely speedy at drnuncheon's (et al) rate of 15 feet per six second round.

[drnuncheon's curmudgeonly voice] "Back in the old days, there was no talk of moving 30 feet in six seconds while moving silently! It took us 5 seconds just to go a foot! And we liked it!" [/drnuncheon's curmudgeonly voice]

(I'm just kidding with you drnucheon )

 

[IceBear]

Yeah, I was pretty sure it was in an older edition too, but I was HOPING that it might have made it into this one too

IceBear

 

[kreynolds]

K, I've said it many times: I think that 'normal speed' is walking speed. 15' per move action, 30' per round. I'm not sure how much clearer about that I can be.

You may have said it but you seemed to be rather ambiguous about it. Now you've been clear. Thank you.

Stepping out of combat for a moment: if someone were moving silently with no penalty for one minute, how far would they get? Would you use half of the walking rate? Half of the hustle rate? Half of the run rate? What if they were doing it for an hour? For a whole day?

If they doing nothing for the whole round, every round, but move, say with a double-move...

1 minute = 300 ft.
1 hour = 3 miles
1 day = 24 miles

If they are only using a single move action every round to move silently...

1 minute = 150 ft.
1 hour = 1.5 miles
1 day = 12 miles

Normal speed = 30 feet per round (walking speed).
Normal speed therefore = 15 feet per move action.
Half of normal speed = 7.5 feet per move action, or 15 feet per round.

I don't understand how this conflicts with the core rules at all.

Ah. I finally get your perspective on this. Now we're getting somewhere. Cool.

The reason I think your definition of 'normal speed' changes in combat is because you are figuring the speed of someone moving silently based on half the speed of someone who is hustling.

My definition of "normal speed" does not change in combat at all. First, I define normal speed as 30 feet. Simple as that. Now, what you can do with that movement is something else.

However, from what I just read in the FAQ, my definition is not directly supported, but yours is. Here's the relevant snip...

If the PCs in the previous question's example were attempting to use their Hide skills, their overland movement rate would be lessened by half...<snip>

Now, from reading that, its pretty clear that hiding or moving silently both reduce your overland movement rate by half, right?

Maybe it's the feet per round thing that is confusing the issue.

Actually, I just figured out what has been confusing me. It's that out of every single passage in the books that state exactly how you move, all of them coincide with each other except for one - hustling half the round when you "walk". That's what has thrown me off. It isn't consistent with the remaining 98% of rules governing movement. It's the only part of the rules, that little 2% chunk, that totally screws the pooch. Why? Because nowhere does it say that moving 30 feet (overland) takes a full round.

Somehow, suddenly, when you are traveling beyond both the tactical and local scales, you suddenly lose an action during your round. Like IceBear asked, what the heck happened to it? If you don't have it, if you simply lost it, or if walking suddenly became a full round action, anybody would be hard pressed to justify that.

Well, thanks for explaining the discrepancy to me.

 

[Rel]

Somehow, suddenly, when you are traveling beyond both the tactical and local scales, you suddenly lose an action during your round. Like IceBear asked, what the heck happened to it? If you don't have it, if you simply lost it, or if walking suddenly became a full round action, anybody would be hard pressed to justify that.

Actually, I think that drnuncheon has a reasonable handle on it:

During combat you are moving twice as fast as the more leisurely and sustainable pace when travelling. In effect a normal single move is a hustle and a double move is a "super hustle". Combat is a special circumstance that you are not expected to keep up for an extended period of time (as a side note, I suppose that if for some reason that combat conditions prevailed for over an hour, I would use the same rules for extended hustling listed in the section where it talks about forced marching).

In other words, the 30 foot per movement action pace that you keep up in combat is not sustainable (for more than an hour) for purposes of travel. So it isn't a matter of you losing the action that you would normally have in addition to your move. Instead it is assumed that you execute a normal "non-combat move" of 15 feet and a second "non-combat move" of 15 feet for a total of 30 feet per round of continuous walking.

That still leaves us wrestling with the issue of whether the "normal" movement listed under the Move Silently skill description refers to travel speed or combat speed. As I mentioned earlier, I am inclined to let it mean both under their respective circumstances.

 

[IceBear]

Yeah, as was pointed out by someone above, the PHB just says that you must move at half speed to not suffer any penalties, and if you run you do suffer penalties.

Since using a move eq action to move 15ft instead of the normal 30ft is half-speed, then I would have to think that it falls within the requirements of the skill.

IceBear

 

[drnuncheon]

Seriously, if they meant your NORMAL speed to be your walking speed, then they should have given everyone a base speed of 15 and said in combat you can move twice that speed in one movement action. Since they didn't, I would think that the one stat that they give - 30ft - is your normal speed.

But...isn't that exactly what they did?

Your normal speed is 30' per round.
If you speed up and hustle, you can move twice that in one round.

If you only move for half a round, you move half that - 15' or 30' depending on the speed you're going.

"But to answer your question: no, I'm not referring to the special action double-move hustle when I say that a hustle is faster than normal."

Yup, that's why I quoted what I did from the PHB - a double move is a "special standard action".

J

 

[kreynolds]

(as a side note, I suppose that if for some reason that combat conditions prevailed for over an hour, I would use the same rules for extended hustling listed in the section where it talks about forced marching).

You would need to use the rules for extended hustling. Forced Marching rules only apply to extended walking. If combat speed really is twice as fast as overland speed, then hustling applies, not forced march.

 

[IceBear]

But...isn't that exactly what they did?

Your normal speed is 30' per round.
If you speed up and hustle, you can move twice that in one round.

No, as far as I'm concerned 98% of the PHB (to quote kreynolds)is saying your normal speed is 30' per move action. When you play, honestly, isn't that your "normal" use for movement? It is in mine. Again, the PHB quote above just states that you must move at one-half speed. That's it, speed - and since they say running gives a penalty, then we can assume that this speed is either walking or hustling speed. Just as long as you move at one-half speed (and aren't running), you're in compliance with the skill use.

IceBear

 

[Speaks With Stone]

Originally posted by Speaks With Stone
P.S. Ha! Rel, I replied before you could snipe me for non-response. Thanksgiving holidays sort of limited my computer time, but I'm back now.
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Originally posted by Rel
No you didn't, pal. Look at the first paragraph of my post up there. You're busted, I say!


Tsk Tsk. Check on page 2 my contrary friend. I beat your post by over 30 minutes.