Move Silently Question

[IceBear]

Yeah Rel, he did post before you

IceBear

 

[drnuncheon]

My definition of "normal speed" does not change in combat at all. First, I define normal speed as 30 feet. Simple as that. Now, what you can do with that movement is something else.

But 'thirty feet' is not a speed. "thirty feet per time period X" is a speed. What is time period X? That's what I'm getting at. I think TPX is 'one round'. Other folks think it's 'one move action'.

Now, from reading that, its pretty clear that hiding or moving silently both reduce your overland movement rate by half, right?

Right. And since overland movement is generally considered to be walking, we see from that that you go 15' in a full round (2 move actions) of moving silently.

Actually, I just figured out what has been confusing me. It's that out of every single passage in the books that state exactly how you move, all of them coincide with each other except for one - hustling half the round when you "walk". That's what has thrown me off. It isn't consistent with the remaining 98% of rules governing movement. It's the only part of the rules, that little 2% chunk, that totally screws the pooch. Why? Because nowhere does it say that moving 30 feet (overland) takes a full round.

It sure does! That's what that table (page 143) in the PHB is that we keep pointing out to you. One round, walk, 30 ft. First line of the table (barring headers and such). You can tell that the 30 feet is a double move, because the next line (hustle) says you can move 60 ft per round at a hustle. It is no coincidence that this is the typical distance you travel during a double move in combat...

So you're not 'losing actions' when you move overland. Remember, if you're moving 30' in a round and doing something else then you are hustling - and you can't keep up a hustle all day. (That's on the same page, BTW, top of the second column.) Your example person who is "losing actions" is jogging for 3 seconds, stopping for 3, jogging for 3 more - which is not how anybody I know moves. The normal person is walking for 6 seconds and traveling at the same overall rate, losing no actions.

J

 

[IceBear]

Yeah, but then you end up with 7.5 for movement in combat which doesn't work either. If that Overland Movement chapter wasn't in the book then we wouldn't be having this discussion.

I still stand by normal speed being per action as that's what most of the book seems to imply.

From the abridged glossary:

move-equivalent action: An action that takes the
place of moving at normal speed.

(emphasis mine)

IceBear

 

[kreynolds]

It sure does! That's what that table (page 143) in the PHB is that we keep pointing out to you. One round, walk, 30 ft.

No, not if you're talking about the first entry in Table 9-3. That is 30 feet in one tactical round. In one tactical round, you move 30 feet, but not for the entire round, as you have enough time left over to perform a standard action as well.

 

[IceBear]

Good catch kreynolds (I'm going to actually read the books when discussing on here )

IceBear

 

[drnuncheon]

No, not if you're talking about the first entry in Table 9-3. That is 30 feet in one tactical round. In one tactical round, you move 30 feet, but not for the entire round, as you have enough time left over to perform a standard action as well.

I am, but I believe you are reading it wrong. Moving 30' and then acting is a half-round hustle, not a walk. (that's lower on the page)

As you can see, the second line is for hustle, and shows how far you can get doing a double-move at hustling speed. The third and fourth lines show how far you get doing a double move at running speed.

Therefore, the first line ought to show how far you get doing a double move at walking speed, no? I don't see why you think it should reflect a move action and a standard action, when none of the other lines do so.

J

 

[IceBear]

Did you not see what I found in the glossary? It's basically saying that a move-eq action takes the place of moving at your *normal* speed. Thus, in the debate of what normal speed they are referring to in the skill description seems to be what you can move in a move action - which is 30ft.

IceBear

 

[drnuncheon]

Did you not see what I found in the glossary? It's basically saying that a move-eq action takes the place of moving at your *normal* speed. Thus, in the debate of what normal speed they are referring to in the skill description seems to be what you can move in a move action - which is 30ft.

Then why are all the people in the Listen skill example going at half that speed when trying to Move Silently? Did you not see when I pointed that out? Did you think it was just a strange coincidence?

I think the glossary entry is reflecting the fact that normally, time is only broken up into rounds and actions in combat. I don't completely trust the glossary, since it includes nonexistant terms like 'shield bonus', and it's very easy to screw up when compiling lists of terms like that - like saying 'normal speed' meaning 'normal combat speed', without considering what reflection that might have on the rest of the rules.

J

 

[IceBear]

What example? I must have missed that.

But see, we were arguing over what they meant by moving one-half your normal speed (ie what was normal). You were assuming that it's your speed per round, but as far as I can tell, it is only that one passage in the movement section that uses 30ft per round walking EVERYWHERE else it's 30ft per move action. Now that I've shown you a place - in writting - where they say your normal speed is how far you can move in one action you don't like it

Edit: Ok, see what your talking about with the Listen check. In all honesty, I think they weren't on all the same page when they wrote this rules. To me they just divided the speed in half without looking at the reference - so they just divided all speed listings (be it per action, per round, per day, etc) in half. I bet those examples were meant to be outside of combat. If they had an example of in combat they would have said something about moving 15 per move action . I REALLY think they didn't realize what they were doing when they wrote this.

Again, as long as we are consistent it won't be much of an issue, and for combat purposes I really hate the idea of 7.5ft movements

IceBear

 

[drnuncheon]

Ok, see what your talking about with the Listen check. In all honesty, I think they weren't on all the same page when they wrote this rules. To me they just divided the speed in half without looking at the reference - so they just divided all speed listings (be it per action, per round, per day, etc) in half. I bet those examples were meant to be outside of combat.

I bet they were, too - Move Silently is generally (in my experience) used outside of combat. But in saying 'they just divided the speed in half without looking at the reference', aren't you doing the same thing you said I was doing?

It's unclear in the rules. I think that for my purposes, moving at half your walking speed makes more sense to me, in terms of both logic and the rules as I see them - even if it makes for ugly combat moves. (I'd probably work it kind of like diagonals - alternate between two and one squares per move action.)

I can see enough ambiguity that you could say 'thirty feet per move' is supposed to be 'normal speed', but it just doesn't sit well with me to have jogging considered a normal speed, and to have someone who is trying to move as quietly as they can able to keep up with someone who is walking without making any particular effort at staying quiet.

I think the ambiguity comes in because in writing the authors got confused between 'normal speed' and 'normal combat speed', and didn't consider all of the rules all of the time. It's easy for hundreds of thousands of gamers to find the flaws, not so easy for three writers.

J
...if I ever own a game company I promise to employ a crack squad of rules-lawyers to find and exploit as many holes as possible.