Move Silently Question

[kreynolds]

K, I apologize if you felt I was rude.

No problem. Just trying to keep everyone cool-headed here.

kreynolds, if I understand your argument correctly, you believe that 'normal speed' is 'hustle speed'

No. As I said, I wasn't sure, and still am not sure, what you meant when you were asking what is "normal".

To clarify what I think one's "normal speed" is, if I'm understanding you correctly, it is whatever speed is at the top of your character sheet, whatever speed is detailed by your racial description, or whatever speed is shown in a monster's statblock.

Like Souljourner, I'm done here. I've convinced myself, and that's the only thing that really matters.

Seriously, that's too bad. I was interested to see this from your perspective. I am trying too. Here's part of my perspective, and hopefully, it might shed some light on this for you. It might not, but I think it's worth it.

Your base movement rate, the one I detailed above, is a static thing, rarely ever changing. It can, however, be influenced by class abilities, armor, skills, encumberance, spells, powers, magic items, terrain, obstructions, etc. Your movement rate can be slowed down or sped up.

However, what you can do with your movement rate is very fluid in comparison. You can move slower, such as moving 10 feet even when you are allowed more. You can move faster, such as a mini-hustle (the move allowed with a standard action). You can move faster than that, such as a hustle (double move, which is a special standard action). You can move even faster than that, such as a run x3, or even faster with a run x4 (full-round action).

If your base movement rate is influenced by any of the above, you can still use any of the options I previously mentioned to move faster or slower. By doing so, you aren't altering your movement rate. You are merely reducing or increasing the amount of time you move. Your rate stays the same.

Base movement rates never change because you are in or out of combat. Ever. They are, however, measured differently, but that's all. Tactical movment is measured in feet per round. Local movement is measured in feet per minute. Overland is measured in miles per hour or day. Given all this, your movement rate still doesn't change, only the way it is measured.

I see no precedence in the core rules for movement rates changing based on whether or not you are in combat. The only thing that I see changing is how it is measured. As I said, I am trying to see this from your perspective, but from what I can tell so far, your viewpoint directly conflicts with the core rules.

I truly would like to better understand your point of view, but I can't really do that if you drop out of the discussion. You have been pretty polite throughout the discussion, and I sincerely appreciate it. You've kept your cool and expressed your opinion in an intelligent and mature manner. I can't tell you how much I appreciate that. However, I do ask, please stick around. Your input is valuable, to say the least.

 

[drnuncheon]

OK, I'll give it another shot.

No. As I said, I wasn't sure, and still am not sure, what you meant when you were asking what is "normal".

To clarify what I think one's "normal speed" is, if I'm understanding you correctly, it is whatever speed is at the top of your character sheet, whatever speed is detailed by your racial description, or whatever speed is shown in a monster's statblock.

The 'speed' at the top of your character sheet is just a distance, it's not a speed, though. It's just '30 feet'. 30 feet per what?

Per round? If 'normal speed' is 30 feet per round (which is what Souljourner and I think), then you should be able to go 15 feet per round when moving silently, without taking a penalty. If you try to go more than 15 feet in one round but up to 30 (say, by taking two moves of 15 ft each), you should take a -5 penalty.

Per move action? I don't understand why you would think this is 'normal'. To me, it is pretty clear that it is your 'normal speed', doubled because your hustling, and then halved because you're only hustling for one move action (half the time). Sure, you come out with the same figure, but you're really moving twice as fast, you're just doing it over a shorter period of time.

I see no precedence in the core rules for movement rates changing based on whether or not you are in combat. The only thing that I see changing is how it is measured. As I said, I am trying to see this from your perspective, but from what I can tell so far, your viewpoint directly conflicts with the core rules.

But K, I'm not the one trying to change movement rates! That's what's so frustrating about this discussion - you say things like this, which I completely agree with, and then you go on to measure movement rates differently in combat and non-combat situations, which is what I've been trying to point out to you.

You can move faster, such as a mini-hustle (the move allowed with a standard action).

Okay! So a hustle is faster than normal. We both agree on that.

Move Silently says "You can move up to one-half your normal speed with no penalty." Not up to one-half your faster-than-normal hustle speed.

Your 'normal speed' is 30 ft per 6 seconds (a walk). (That's 15 feet per move action, BTW, since we're not hustling.) When you move silently, therefore, you can move up to half of that (15 ft/round, or 7.5 ft per move action) without penalty.

When you use the combat speeds to say 'Mr. Sneaky should be able to go 15 feet in a single move action', you are not figuring based on one-half the normal speed. You are figuring on one-half the 'hustle' speed, which is twice as fast as normal. (If you hustle, you move 60 ft in one round, or 30 ft in one move action, as opposed to 30/15.) But Move Silently doesn't say 'half your hustle speed' in the skill description. It says 'half your normal speed'.

So, as near as I can tell, it's your viewpoint that directly conflicts with the core rules, unless you believe that the definition of 'normal speed' changes in combat. I don't think it does - I think that in combat you are generally moving faster than normal, that being what a 'hustle' is. So. to me, figuring out the speeds of someone moving silently based on the 'hustling' combat speed seems not only counterintuitive but outright wrong.

J

 

[IceBear]

Since the rules seem to say that the speed listed on your sheet is how far you can move with a move action, that's what I interpret it to mean. So if I have a speed of 30ft, I can move 30ft with a move action. If, I am moving silently, then I have a speed of 15ft and can move 15ft with a move action (I don't care if that's a walk or a hustle, it's a move action in my books).

Again, why is this a big deal? You are fixated on the word "walk" and the movement chart in the SRD. Thus, in your games, you say that people move at half their "walking speed" when moving silently, which means they move 7.5ft per move action. As long as it's all consistent then it's all good. I personally don't like 7.5ft for a move action, so as correct as your arguments sound, I'm just going to take the easy round and apply the half modifier to your base speed instead. It makes someone moving silently move slower than someone who isn't and that's all that counts in the end.

I also think that the movement section of the SRD is poorly written. They specifically call a hustle two move-eq actions even though (and I think we all agree) in combat if you take one movement action you're not walking This, implies, that they are thinking of movement in terms of actions as opposed to rounds and that the base - normal - speed is what is listed on your sheet as your speed per action.

IceBear

 

[Antikinesis]

Your "normal" speed is your base speed.

Moving at your "normal" speed allows you to walk/hustle/run for 30/60/120 feet per round.

Moving at half your "normal" speed allows you to walk/hustle/run for 15/30/60 feet per round.

Moving silently without penalty allows you to move at half your normal SPEED... NOT half your normal MOVEMENT. If you want to change the wording for the skill, and make it half the "normal movement", and subsequently define "normal movement" as walking, then you can't get more than 15 feet of walking silently in a round. But that's not core rules, it's a house rule.

Moving silently without penalty, at half your normal SPEED, lets you walk/hustle for 15/30 feet per round. (Running and charging are specifically mentioned as incurring a -20 penalty.)

Why make it more complicated than that?

-AK

 

[drnuncheon]

Again, why is this a big deal?

It's not. You understand what I'm saying and have decided to interpret it another way, which is fine - and you even realize that your way is inconsistant between combat & noncombat. Not much I can say to that except 'game on'.

The 'big deal' is that I can't seem to get to that point with kreynolds - there's apparently a gap in communication that we haven't been able to bridge, and as someone who likes to think of himself as both logical and able to communicate clearly, that's very frustrating for me: he's obviously no dummy, and yet neither of us can seem to understand where the other is coming from. I suspect he's feeling much the same way.

I keep hoping for a "Eureka!" moment.

J

 

[Drawmack]

For those looking for it, it's right under Tactical Movement on pg 143.

"Use tactical speed for combat, as detailed in Chapter 8: Combat. Characters generally don't walk during combat: They hustle or run. A character who moves his or her speed and takes some action, such as attacking or casting a spell, is hustling for about half the round and doing something else the other half."

This does not negate my statement.

For this example lets take a base speed of 30

So when someone hustles they can move 30 feet in 3 seconds. This is still 10'/second. Half of that is still 5'/second. Therefor taking a full-move action they get 5' * 6 seconds = 30 feet.

Unless of course in your world it is impossible for someone to move for six continuous seconds. Maybe they would get fatigued.

 

[kreynolds]

But K, I'm not the one trying to change movement rates!

I'm not either.

...you say things like this, which I completely agree with, and then you go on to measure movement rates differently in combat and non-combat situations...

The only time I measured them different was when I mentioned the 30 foot speed 24 miles per day overland movement rate on the first page of this thread. Measuring movement scales does not actually change your movement rate. Ever. I already pointed this out. Now, when you say "measure movement rates", do you actually mean "change movement rates"? Cause that's a big difference. I didn't "change" any movement rates. Not once.

Okay! So a hustle is faster than normal.

Are you referring to the special standard action double-move hustle? Again, we are right back to this "normal" thing. I have no idea what you are defining as "normal", so I won't walk blindly into a dark room without some kind of help from you.

So, as near as I can tell, it's your viewpoint that directly conflicts with the core rules, unless you believe that the definition of 'normal speed' changes in combat.

No. My definition of normal speed does not change in combat. I don't know where you're getting this from. I don't see how your view can not conflict with the core rules, when according to you, moving silently should only allow you to move 7.5 feet. I would be interested in seeing a Sage reply about that. Heck, even CS would do just fine. I have no doubt they would disagree.

I think that in combat you are generally moving faster than normal, that being what a 'hustle' is. So. to me, figuring out the speeds of someone moving silently based on the 'hustling' combat speed seems not only counterintuitive but outright wrong.

I think it is your definition of "normal" that is counterintuitive. It seems to be your road-block, the one thing that is preventing you from seeing this from my perspective, even if just for arguments sake. Not much I can do about that, I suppose.

 

[Speaks With Stone]

I believe the problem is that if a hustle = 60 ft per round or 10 ft per second and you halve that to 30 ft per round or 5 ft per second, then you are by definition hustling and moving silent at the same time with no penalty. If you believe that hustling is faster than walking and walking is faster than sneaking, then there is a significant disconect.

The speeds above are for double moves.

Now for a single move equivalent action (which of course assumes you can attack, cast a spell or whatever as well) then a hustle allows a single 30 foot move, a walk allows a single 15 foot move and a sneak allows IceBears dreaded 7.5 ft move.

It seems to me that kreynolds and others feel no need to reconcile the "fluff" in the rules about hustle for a double move or a 30 ft move equivalent action assumes a hustle for that portion.

To my way of thinking and to souljourner and others there should be a distinction between sneaking, walking, hustling/jogging as far as movement rates go.

The rules suggest a distintion, but don't clearly spell out what the distinction is since speed is defined in different ways in different parts of the game.

My GM has already ruled that he agrees with IceBear and kreynolds that it doesn't matter so much. The double move rate was halved and balance was fine (even if the math doesn't make perfect sense on close analysis).

I submit that the following rates should apply for a base 30 per round:

Move silent 2.5 ft/sec
Walk 5 ft/sec.
Jog/hustle 10 ft/sec
Run 20 ft per sec

(Round to the nearest 5 ft increment)

Never the less, we will be using

Move silent or walk 5 ft/sec
Jog/Hustle 10 ft/sec
Run 20 ft/sec

Finally, for those who wonder why this matters, last week I cast invisibility on everyone in our party so we could sneak out of a trap. Wizards/clerics/rogues/fighters were all lined up outside of the only exit and it had been alarmed. We knew the keyword so we could sneak out, but the GM made lots of listen checks. How far away we got in one round had a significant impact on their followup listen checks. Since we are lurking about a city of hostiles and will have to continue sneaking in this fashion for some time, the question of movement was very high on our list.

I've enjoyed seeing all of the back and forth and I think I see both points of view, I tend to prefer one over the other, but clearly my group is divided.

 

[IceBear]

Yeah, I had considered the speed at which you can move through an area as one area where it would make a difference, but I figure it doesn't come up enough to make much of an issue.

As I was trying to say earlier, the whole movement chapter seems out of wack with the rest of the book. For most of the book they are speaking in terms of actions - you move your listed speed with a move action, two move actions in one round is a hustle, etc - but in that chapter they talk about rounds.

I do see the descrepancy with having someone walk 30ft per round out of combat and then having them sneak 30ft per round in combat, but I can live with it - I'll rationalize it away as the combat noise overriding the moving noise

For the sneaking through the city scenario listed above, I'd probably would have ended up with everyone moving 15ft per round, as I wouldn't be in the "actions" mindframe. That's why I see the whole movement thing as having a major disjunction, because I am doing what the rules state - moving at half speed - but for some reason in combat I can now double move. Maybe walking assumes that you take a move action and then a move equivalent action to "spot" obstacles, etc in the round.

They specifically state that a hustle is two move actions, then this implies a walk is only one move action in the round.

IceBear

 

[Antikinesis]

It seems to me that kreynolds and others feel no need to reconcile the "fluff" in the rules about hustle for a double move or a 30 ft move equivalent action assumes a hustle for that portion.

This can be easily reconciled by noting that the move silently skill restricts SPEED and not MOVEMENT.

To my way of thinking and to souljourner and others there should be a distinction between sneaking, walking, hustling/jogging as far as movement rates go. The rules suggest a distintion, but don't clearly spell out what the distinction is since speed is defined in different ways in different parts of the game.

"Sneaking" (moving silently) is done during a characters movement, be it walking or jogging. You're still confusing movement with speed.

My GM has already ruled that he agrees with IceBear and kreynolds that it doesn't matter so much. The double move rate was halved and balance was fine (even if the math doesn't make perfect sense on close analysis).

The math works fine... if you halve the speed.

I submit that the following rates should apply for a base 30 per round:

Move silent 2.5 ft/sec
Walk 5 ft/sec.
Jog/hustle 10 ft/sec
Run 20 ft per sec

My counter-suggestion for penalty-free silent moves:
Walking silently: 2.5 ft/sec
Hustling silently: 5 ft/sec
Running silently: Nope.

The moving silently penalties are incurred by speed, not movement. You just use the movement to determine if the character is exceeding half of their normal speed. Piece of cake.

-AK

[edit... grammar.]