Move Silently Question

[Lucius Foxhound]

Yep... I change my mind, too. We need a new skill: Hustle Silently.

And why oh why did WotC have to call it something lame like "hustle"? Have any of those people moved out of the seventies?

edited: Forgot to add a

 

[The Souljourner]

Ahh!! Thank you Lucius... it's good to know I wasn't just pulling stuff out of my ... erm pocket.

For those looking for it, it's right under Tactical Movement on pg 143.

"Use tactical speed for combat, as detailed in Chapter 8: Combat. Characters generally don't walk during combat: They hustle or run. A character who moves his or her speed and takes some action, such as attacking or casting a spell, is hustling for about half the round and doing something else the other half."

*laugh* nice, Lucius. Ninjas of the crescent moon get an ability that lets them move their normal speed and not take any penalties.. but I don't know about hustling. However, with a few magic items, high level rogues can easily take the -20 and get past most normal guards.

-The Souljourner

 

[Li Shenron]

from the SRD

Check: The character's Move Silently check is opposed by the Listen check of anyone who might hear the character. The character can move up to one-half the character's normal speed at no penalty. At more than one-half and up to the character's full speed, the character suffers a –5 penalty. It's practically impossible (–20 penalty) to move silently while running or charging.

Well, I have always simply played that when you Move Silently your moving distance is halved. For ex. if you Move Silently for 1 full round, you move 30ft; if you Move Silently for 1 single move action, you move 15ft.
You can avoid reducing your moving distance, but with a penalty of -5; in this case you move 60ft in a round, or 30ft in a single move action.
You can run, effectively doubling your moving distance, but with -20; in this case you move 120ft in a full-round run, or 60ft in a partial run.

This makes sense to me.
If it means instead that you can move (in a full round) <15ft with no penalty, 15 to 30ft with -5, then run = 60-120ft with -5, then what happened to 30-60ft? Why doesn't it say clearly that to use the Move Silently skill is always a full-round action? I wish it had an explanation as good as Climb or Balance.

I think all our doubts come from the fact that in D&D what we call "Speed" is measured in ft, and therefore it's a distance, not a speed. But it gains the use as a speed because it's the distance per move-action, and with 2 move-actions in a round, you can figure it out that "Speed" becomes ft/half-round...

I may be wrong. Probably because we haven't used MS really during the combat roundabout, but mostly as an off-combat skill.

 

[Mahali]

When moving silently with no penalty you move 1/2 per movement.
If your speed is 120 then you can go 60 with a single move or 120 with a double move all without a penalty.

 

[kreynolds]

A "Normal move" in combat is not done at a walk, it's done at a jog.

I saw the referrence in the PH stating that when you move your movement rate and take another action, you are effectively hustling for a short period of time. This still doesn't help me make sense of your opinion though, but I'm trying. Here, let me try and give you my perspective. Maybe you'll be able to find the flaw in it, if there is one (which is certainly possible).

Keeping that referrence in the PH in mind, if you wanted to just walk and make an attack, you would move a max of 15 ft. (if your normal rate is 30) and you would make an attack. If you wanted to move non-tactically, say when you're just walking down the road, you take a double move. If this is not the case, the movement rate per day charts need to be cut in half, because the only way to walk 32 miles in a day is to make a double move every single round because you only move 15 feet with a single move. So, only one of two possibilities are correct.

1) Using Hide means you can only walk.
2) Using Hide limits you to half your movement rate per round.

You'll probably notice that both 1 and 2 lead to the exact same result. If using Hide means that you can only move half your normal movement rate to avoid the -5 penalty, then just make a double move. If you disallow this, then your players can only travel 18 miles per day, because apparently, its now impossible to perform a double move at half speed, and the Hide skill makes no restriction on your total movement per round. It only restricts your movement rate, which is completely different.

My point is this (assume normal movement rate of 30): A hustle is 60 feet per round with a double-move. A standard move is 30 feet per round with a short hustle when you also take another action the same round. A standard day of walking, 32 miles per day, is accomplished by performing either a double move every round at walking speed (15 feet per move), or for some funky and completely unexplainable reason, you simply take one short hustle every round (insert mental picture of skipping down the road here). If you peform a double move at a rate of 15 feet per move, you're still only walking, which means you're still only moving half your normal movement rate.

 

[Li Shenron]

Mmm... I'd say you never "walk" in combat. You either hustle or run, and if you don't move your full speed per movement it's because you don't need to move farther, not because you move more slowly. Unless you are moving in a special way (such as Moving Silently).

 

[drnuncheon]

Boards are flaky. Will post later.

 

[Spatzimaus]

Originally I was in the "you can double-move" camp, but looking through the rules after seeing the arguments here, I think I have to switch to the "15' per ROUND" side.

A double move is not actually a sequential thing like "move A at your normal speed, then move B at your normal speed", even though that's how the rules basically treat it. It's more of "move twice your normal speed along path A+B".

A person who walks and then attacks could be thought of as moving their normal speed during the entire turn, while doing something else. 30' in 6 seconds. Under this interpretation, someone doing a double move must be moving FASTER, not just moving longer.

And if you look at it the other way (a single-move takes 3 seconds and you use the other 3 for your action) then you'd have to be jogging to move that fast. Even though that's the interpretation the book seems to use, I don't like it; it reminds me too much of UO and EQ, where everyone runs everywhere instead of walking.

That'd break down movement like this:
15' in 6 seconds: Creeping (you can Move Silently here)
30' in 6 seconds: Walking
30' in 3 seconds or 60' in 6 seconds: Jogging
120' in 6 seconds: Running

Now, if you made a "Fast Sneak" Feat to let you Move Silently at a walking pace, that could be interesting.

 

[kreynolds]

...boards are back up finally. Cool.

It's more of "move twice your normal speed along path A+B".

I think it's more of "move your normal speed for twice as long by eating up two actions". It is, after all, taking up two actions, so if it doesn't really take up two actions, what are you doing for the 2nd move action?

A person who walks and then attacks could be thought of as moving their normal speed during the entire turn, while doing something else.

Tactically or non-tactically? There's a big difference in the core rules. Tactically, a person who "walks" and then attacks is only moving half their normal speed, because tactically, a standard move is a mini-hustle, not a walk.

Non-tactically, A person who walks and then attack is not moving their normal speed during the entire turn while doing something else. That's what some move-equivalent actions are.

What these "can be thought" of is fine and all, but not if they conflict with other actions defined by the rules.

30' in 6 seconds.

Tactically, 30 feet in 6 seconds is a mini-huslte. Non-tactically, 30 feet in 6 seconds is what? Careful with your answer here. The overland movement rates depend up it.

Under this interpretation, someone doing a double move must be moving FASTER, not just moving longer.

The basis of your interpretation is incorrect, thus the problem. 30 feet in one round with a standard move is not a walk. It's a short hustle.

Even though that's the interpretation the book seems to use, I don't like it;

Well, that's the way it is. It's all we have to go by. If I start substituting my own terminology in the PH and start ignoring the actual text, I can promise you that my argument will be correct as well. Correct by the text? No. Correct by the new words I put in there? Yes.

I'm not trying to be rude, I swear. I'm just trying to keep the perspective on this thing.

That'd break down movement like this:
15' in 6 seconds: Creeping (you can Move Silently here)
30' in 6 seconds: Walking
30' in 3 seconds or 60' in 6 seconds: Jogging
120' in 6 seconds: Running

But that's not right. 30' in 3 seconds, when you take another action during the same round, is not a walk. It's a hustle.

I agree that 30 feet in 6 seconds is walking (with a double move).

Now, if you made a "Fast Sneak" Feat to let you Move Silently at a walking pace, that could be interesting.

You don't need the feat. That's my point.

 

[Felix]

kreynolds: I'm with you. Now I know how Crothian feels. Sheesh.

Souljourner: Because the PHB does not define how much time it takes to complete a MEA, (3 seconds, 2 seconds, or what) or if it's before during or after a Standard Action, let's redefine Speed in DnD terms:

The Real World: Speed = Distance / Unit of Time
The DnD World: Speed = Distance / Action

This is redundant, as the units of time in DnD are broken down into Turns, Rounds, and various Actions (SA, MEA, PA, FRA, ...)

So:
Normal Movement Rate = 30 ft per Action = Hustle
Half Movement Rate = 15 ft per Action = Walk
Double Movement Rate = 60 ft per Action = Run

The walking speed corresponds with kreynolds' argument concerning overland movement rates.
The running speed corresponds to x4 movement over a whole round.
The hustling speed corresponds to the PHB quotation of "hustling half the time and doing something else the other half" in that the character still has one action to spend doing something. It also corresponds to a double move being a hustle, but you hustle for twice as long: you hustle for two actions.

So, Moving Silently without penalty requires you not exceed half of the character's normal speed. By moving at a speed of 15 ft per Action, you do not exceed one half of the normal speed. No problem so far. You take your second action and again move at a speed of 15 ft per Action. You have not exceeded your speed and have moved 30 ft in a round.

MEA + MEA = 1 round

Your quote of the SRD has no argument with this:

Originally posted by Souljourner
------ Base Speed -------
30 ft.

One Round (Tactical)
Walk 30 ft.
Hustle 60 ft.

One Tactical round can be made up of 2 MEAs. So if you walk for each of those MEAs in your round, you will be moving at 15 ft per Action. If you hustle for each of those MEAs you will be moving your base speed per action, 30 ft. Notice that there is no other possible way to move 60 ft in a full round if your base speed is 30 if you don't take two MEAs back to back. So the hustle speed is listed meaning two MEAs. This implies that the listed walk speed is also two MEAs.

Put it this way:
A rogue begins his round moving silently 15 ft for his MEA into position behind an orc. Is that rogue able to attack the orc in the same round? Yes, and he had been walking.

Later in combat, would that rogue be able to use two MEAs in the same round to hustle to his dying friend, moving 60 ft? Yes, and he would be hustling.

Later that night, can the rogue move past his sleeping comrades without disturbing their sleep? Yes.

Can he walk twice in a round (just like he hustled twice in a round) as he doesn't disturb his comrades?