Moving into square occupied by invisible & hidden creature

[DracoSuave]

No, you lose hidden and invisible... under normal circumstances. It is sort of confusing because "hiding" makes you invisible. But you can lose "hidden" i.e., people know what square you're in, without becoming "visible." But if you lose cover (assuming you don't have Chameleon) and became invisible via a stealth check, you become both unhidden and visible, unless etc., Further complicating it are powers that say "you remain hidden till x." Since 4e is an exception based system, you're hidden, even if normally you would become unhidden. Dishonorable Tactics, Rogue utility 16 comes immediately to mind, but there are others, including an armor and a couple feats IIRC.

One of my groups has two Rogues, and only the DM and I actually understand the stealth rules. In my experience they are incredibly frustrating and confusing.

I find them surprisingly simple and useful, compared to the 3.5 grapple rules.

Are ya total cover/superior concealed?
--Ya? Make your stealth check.
--No? Don't.

Then:

Do you lack any cover/concealment? Ya? You lose stealth.
Did something bump into you? Ya? You lose stealth.
Did someone beat your stealth with perception? Ya? You lose stealth.
Did you attack someone? Ya? You lose stealth.

Then:

Did ya move far? Recheck that stealth.

Lastly:

Do you have something that says you do something out of order? Ya? Then do that. Very few of those things are 'at-will' type situations so there's no point wrapping your head around them needlessly.


The flowchart for stealth is actually simpler than that for... say... resolving an attack power.

 

[Skallgrim]

Enemy Activity: An enemy can try to find you on its turn. If an enemy makes an active Perception check and beats your Stealth check result (don’t make a new check), you don’t remain hidden from that enemy. Also, if an enemy tries to enter your space, you don’t remain hidden from that enemy.

Meaning you are still invisible, but they know you are there, exactly as if they had minor action'd a perception check and beat your stealth check. This DOES provoke an OA...

This is the key element, to me. There's a risk involved in looking for a hidden enemy by blundering around.

First, you have to move into it's square. If you are playing your character honestly, the PC might not really know where that is.

Second, by attempting to move into that square, you are leaving a square adjacent to an enemy, so they get to attack you with Combat Advantage with an OA.

Finally, even though they are no longer hidden, they are still invisible, so you still are -5 to hit them.

It's not really like "Aha! I found you!"

It's more like "Aaaaarg! I think I just found the pointy end of the drow!".

 

[UngeheuerLich]

No, you lose hidden and invisible... under normal circumstances. It is sort of confusing because "hiding" makes you invisible. But you can lose "hidden" i.e., people know what square you're in, without becoming "visible." But if you lose cover (assuming you don't have Chameleon) and became invisible via a stealth check, you become both unhidden and visible, unless etc., Further complicating it are powers that say "you remain hidden till x." Since 4e is an exception based system, you're hidden, even if normally you would become unhidden. Dishonorable Tactics, Rogue utility 16 comes immediately to mind, but there are others, including an armor and a couple feats IIRC.

One of my groups has two Rogues, and only the DM and I actually understand the stealth rules. In my experience they are incredibly frustrating and confusing.

No, stealth rules are very easy...

I thought it was clear that we speak of beeing invisible because of beeing invisible (spell/total concealment etc.) Then you only lose hidden status. You still have TOTAL CONCEALMENT. Attacking or beeing bumped doesn´t change that. You just have a reasonable chance that a blind swing into the direction could actually hit something.

If you however find someone who was hidden because of total cover and you go around the corner, the enemy loses a) hidden status, b)total cover so no penalty applies anymore.

Stealth rules only become complicated when trying to exploit them. Otherwise they are pretty straightforward.

 

[Aulirophile]

No, stealth rules are very easy...

I thought it was clear that we speak of beeing invisible because of beeing invisible (spell/total concealment etc.) Then you only lose hidden status. You still have TOTAL CONCEALMENT. Attacking or beeing bumped doesn´t change that. You just have a reasonable chance that a blind swing into the direction could actually hit something.

If you however find someone who was hidden because of total cover and you go around the corner, the enemy loses a) hidden status, b)total cover so no penalty applies anymore.

Stealth rules only become complicated when trying to exploit them. Otherwise they are pretty straightforward.

Yeah, no. I understand them just fine, and my group takes my word that it works the way I say it does (I'm an RPGA DM, so.....), but THEY don't get it. Of all the people I know in RL who play 4e, about 3/4 are baffled by the stealth rules, no matter how many times you explain it.

Way to make assumptions though. Classy.

 

[UngeheuerLich]

I didn´t try to imply that you don´t understand them. I thought you implied that i didn´t do so...

... sorry...

... It is good that your players just trust your rulings there. It is usually the best solution. I am always glad when my players just tell me what they want to do, I say "roll the dice" and go on with describing what happens.

I am also glad that stealth rules are really logical, so noone will complain and it will work smoothly. Noone will even try to exploit rules because of a not so well written line.

(I am not sure if anyone of my group really understands most of the stealth or combat advantage rules tbh. but noone really bothers. Except one very annoying player who makes ad hoc ruling very very annoying...)

 

[DracoSuave]

It's more like "Aaaaarg! I think I just found the pointy end of the drow!".

I thought ALL their ends were pointy!