M's Disjunction from a scroll

[CyberSpyder]

Course, if you do not drop this for UMD, you should also not drop spell completion or spell trigger for spell casters who destroy an artifact and miss the will save. Good for the goose, good for the gander.

The difference, of course, being that spellcasters utilize such items by virtue of them being able to literally cast spells, an ability that is lost, as opposed to 'trick' the magic item, an ability not explicitly lost.

 

[DreamChaser]

UMD is a spellcasting ability when used for spell completion or spell trigger. With it, you can cast spells.

Nope. It is still just skill use. With UMD you can do the mystical equivalent of disable device to make a spell go off from an item even though it shouldn't. It is more like Disable Device than spellcasting.

If MD read "if an artifact is destroyed, you must make a DC 25 will save or permanently loose the ability to use magic." then you'd be right.

DC

 

[KarinsDad]

Nope. It is still just skill use. With UMD you can do the mystical equivalent of disable device to make a spell go off from an item even though it shouldn't. It is more like Disable Device than spellcasting.

If MD read "if an artifact is destroyed, you must make a DC 25 will save or permanently loose the ability to use magic." then you'd be right.

Semantics.

The purpose of the clause in Dysjunction is to assign a risk to disjoining artifacts. This is at best a loophole "Oh I know, let's let the Rogue do this." to avoid the risk. Loopholes should be seriously examined.


Spell Completion and Spell Trigger items state:

"All that’s left to do is perform the finishing parts of the spellcasting (the final gestures, words, and so on). "

"No gestures or spell finishing is needed, just a special knowledge of spellcasting that an appropriate character would know, and a single word that must be spoken."

"You can use this skill to read a spell or to activate a magic item. Use Magic Device lets you use a magic item as if you had the spell ability or class features of another class, as if you were a different race, or as if you were of a different alignment."


Emulating spell casting ability is for all intents and purposes in the game, the same as having the spell casting ability when it comes to Spell Completion and Spell Trigger actions.

For example:

"Activating a scroll spell is subject to disruption just as casting a normally prepared spell would be. Using a scroll is like casting a spell for purposes of arcane spell failure chance."

"All wands are simply storage devices for spells and thus have no special descriptions. Refer to the spell descriptions for all pertinent details."

"A spell successfully activated from a scroll works exactly like a spell prepared and cast the normal way."


The fact that UMD is a skill is irrelevant as to whether the Rogue is using a spell casting ability or not. How the Rogue acquires the ability does not matter. What rules that are different for him casting spells does not matter. He is emulating spell casting abilities and effectively casting a spell. He loses the ability to emulate spell casting abilities.


It is not that you cannot activate items. You can. It is that you cannot emulate spell casting abilities because this is beyond mortal magic.

 

[Hypersmurf]

"You can use this skill to read a spell or to activate a magic item. Use Magic Device lets you use a magic item as if you had the spell ability or class features of another class, as if you were a different race, or as if you were of a different alignment."

The rogue has completely and forever lost all spellcasting ability.

But UMD lets him use a magic item as if he did have spell ability.

It doesn't grant him spell ability (which his MDJ incident would prohibit). It merely lets him act as if he had it.

-Hyp.

 

[KarinsDad]

The rogue has completely and forever lost all spellcasting ability.

But UMD lets him use a magic item as if he did have spell ability.

It doesn't grant him spell ability (which his MDJ incident would prohibit). It merely lets him act as if he had it.

Literalistic semantics.

 

[Artoomis]

I agree that the rogue has no spellcasting powers to lose.

I also agree that using a scroll should not create a way to cast M's Disjunction risk-free.

So what's the answer?

Note that activating a scroll of M's Disjunction requires:

1. Deciphering the script: DC 34 One try per day.
2. A 19 Int or Cha. DC 34.
3. Activate the Scroll. DC 37 (Wiz, if using Int) or 38 (Sorc, if using Cha).

Let's assume a bard was doing this. You could have +4 from Synergy bonuses, +2 more from the feat that gives you +3 instead of +4 for synergy bonuses, plus 3 more for Skill Focus, plus another 5 for a 20 Cha (assuming a bard who focuses on Cha) giving +24 total.

This means this could be done every time (no failures) at only 10th level for a Bard!!

Wow!

A high level party (high enough to cast M's Disjunction) could have their Wizard or Sorceror create scrolls of M's Disjunction for 1,912.5 gp plus 153 exp points that could be used reliably and risk-free by the party's Bard (or Rogue, by 17th level).

It seems somehow wrong to be able to avoid the risky aspects of M's Disjunction by simply creating a scroll.

I guess this shows one of the true values of a Bard or Rogue. Risk-free M's Disjunction. Wow - this is really, really powerful if a party capitalized on this.

For reference:

Creating Scrolls...The creator must have prepared the spell to be scribed (or must know the spell, in the case of a sorcerer or bard) and must provide any material component or focus the spell requires. If casting the spell would reduce the caster’s XP total, she pays the cost upon beginning the scroll in addition to the XP cost for making the scroll itself. Likewise, a material component is consumed when she begins writing, but a focus is not. (A focus used in scribing a scroll can be reused.) The act of writing triggers the prepared spell, making it unavailable for casting until the character has rested and regained spells. (That is, that spell slot is expended from her currently prepared spells, just as if it had been cast.)

Spell Completion
This is the activation method for scrolls. A scroll is a spell that is mostly finished. The preparation is done for the caster, so no preparation time is needed beforehand as with normal spellcasting. All that’s left to do is perform the finishing parts of the spellcasting (the final gestures, words, and so on). To use a spell completion item safely, a character must be of high enough level in the right class to cast the spell already. If he can’t already cast the spell, there’s a chance he’ll make a mistake. Activating a spell completion item is a standard action and provokes attacks of opportunity exactly as casting a spell does.

Activate the Spell
Activating a scroll requires reading the spell from the scroll. The character must be able to see and read the writing on the scroll. Activating a scroll spell requires no material components or focus. (The creator of the scroll provided these when scribing the scroll.) Note that some spells are effective only when cast on an item or items. In such a case, the scroll user must provide the item when activating the spell. Activating a scroll spell is subject to disruption just as casting a normally prepared spell would be. Using a scroll is like casting a spell for purposes of arcane spell failure chance.

To have any chance of activating a scroll spell, the scroll user must meet the following requirements.

The spell must be of the correct type (arcane or divine). Arcane spellcasters (wizards, sorcerers, and bards) can only use scrolls containing arcane spells, and divine spellcasters (clerics, druids, paladins, and rangers) can only use scrolls containing divine spells. (The type of scroll a character creates is also determined by his or her class.)
The user must have the spell on his or her class list.
The user must have the requisite ability score.
If the user meets all the requirements noted above, and her caster level is at least equal to the spell’s caster level, she can automatically activate the spell without a check. If she meets all three requirements but her own caster level is lower than the scroll spell’s caster level, then she has to make a caster level check (DC = scroll’s caster level + 1) to cast the spell successfully. If she fails, she must make a DC 5 Wisdom check to avoid a mishap (see Scroll Mishaps, below). A natural roll of 1 always fails, whatever the modifiers.

Determine Effect
A spell successfully activated from a scroll works exactly like a spell prepared and cast the normal way. Assume the scroll spell’s caster level is always the minimum level required to cast the spell for the character who scribed the scroll (usually twice the spell’s level, minus 1), unless the caster specifically desires otherwise.

Use Magic Device (Cha; Trained Only)
Use this skill to activate magic

Check
You can use this skill to read a spell or to activate a magic item. Use Magic Device lets you use a magic item as if you had the spell ability or class features of another class, as if you were a different race, or as if you were of a different alignment.

...

Emulate an Ability Score
To cast a spell from a scroll, you need a high score in the appropriate ability (Intelligence for wizard spells, Wisdom for divine spells, or Charisma for sorcerer or bard spells). Your effective ability score (appropriate to the class you’re emulating when you try to cast the spell from the scroll) is your Use Magic Device check result minus 15. If you already have a high enough score in the appropriate ability, you don’t need to make this check.

...

Decipher a Written Spell
This usage works just like deciphering a written spell with the Spellcraft skill, except that the DC is 5 points higher. Deciphering a written spell requires 1 minute of concentration.

...

Use a Scroll
If you are casting a spell from a scroll, you have to decipher it first. Normally, to cast a spell from a scroll, you must have the scroll’s spell on your class spell list. Use Magic Device allows you to use a scroll as if you had a particular spell on your class spell list. The DC is equal to 20 + the caster level of the spell you are trying to cast from the scroll. In addition, casting a spell from a scroll requires a minimum score (10 + spell level) in the appropriate ability. If you don’t have a sufficient score in that ability, you must emulate the ability score with a separate Use Magic Device check (see above).

This use of the skill also applies to other spell completion magic items.

 

[Kisanji Arael]

Literalistic semantics.

Oh, come on. What else goes on here besides semantics? This board is effectively a debate board over the rules, with eloquence as the weapon of choice..

I second the argument that the rogue loses nothing. As I see it, the core of this issue revolves around two conflicting views--

1. The Spiderman argument. With great power comes great responsibility. Game balance focus.
OR
2. The "WTF???" argument. "It makes no sense to penalize the players because of a natural part of the world!!!" Realism focus.

However, the reason that I side with number two, as crude as it may be, is that argument 1 effectively stems from the concept, " The only way we'll keep the players in check is with harsh consequences clearly defined" I don't like this. I personally feel that if players outsmart me once, good for them. If they try to do it the same way a second time, they'll have something else coming. The DM should be able to outsmart the players. That's why he's the DM.

If there are players which need to be dealt with (or show themselves incapable of leaving my artifacts alone) there are much more creative ways to handle rule-abusing players. Off the top of my head, I would rule that the rogue (since he has no spellcasting to lose) is no longer affected by a random school of magic. For my logic, I would say that the spellcasting ability is usually a buffer against this. The rogue has no such buffer.

...Then, I would fudge the roll to make sure it was Conjuration. Cruel? Yes. Cheating? Rule Zero, baby.That rogue is a little dead to magic, and now he's lost access to any healing until the party finds a way to fix the problem. And if they're at a level to deal with artfacts, maybe its time they learned to run from the tarrasquw.It's an efficient mode of training. They'll just have to learn to jump through my hoops like they knew they should.

EDIT: I don't mean this as a house rule, but rather as an invisible fence to be put into the yard when my dogs keep running away. I've never had to do this, personally.

 

[KarinsDad]

I second the argument that the rogue loses nothing. As I see it, the core of this issue revolves around two conflicting views--

1. The Spiderman argument. With great power comes great responsibility. Game balance focus.
OR
2. The "WTF???" argument. "It makes no sense to penalize the players because of a natural part of the world!!!" Realism focus.

However, the reason that I side with number two, as crude as it may be, is that argument 1 effectively stems from the concept, " The only way we'll keep the players in check is with harsh consequences clearly defined" I don't like this. I personally feel that if players outsmart me once, good for them. If they try to do it the same way a second time, they'll have something else coming. The DM should be able to outsmart the players. That's why he's the DM.

I understand your point of view, but you are making an assumption as to why the PCs are doing this.

They might not know that a given opponent or group of opponents has an artifact and might not be doing it, just to outsmart the DM once. It might just become a standard party tactic.

They might have said "You know, let's not take any chances ever. We know that there is a major penalty for this if the Sorcerer (or Wizard) does it, so let's minimize our chances of ever seeing that penalty. From now on, if we are outgunned with heavy duty opponents who should have magic items, we have the Rogue Disjunction them with a scroll. Sure, we'll lose several items that we might have gained, but we'll only do this in the most severe of situations where we would probably die anyway and never see those items anyway."


One of the things about DND is that the risks tend to be fairly minimal in 3E/3.5 compared to 2E (with the exception of tougher monsters now). The reason is that the players tend to understand most of the bad things that could possibly happen to them and can prepare accordingly.

How many times does most groups get a curse that Remove Curse does not remove? Well, if the DM has a plot device, it might happen. But for the most part, PCs can counter most bad things.

I remember in Second Edition that the players were absolutely scared witless to go into a burrow mound if it had undead that could drain levels. They were so super cautious that it was great. In 3e/3.5 with various Restoration/Heal spells available, it is barely a threat anymore once you get to mid-levels. Our parties tend to take wands or multiple scrolls of helpful spells (Neutralized Poison, Restoration, various Cures, etc.).

Even Identify. If you find some magic items in the field, the party Sorcerer can cast it a lot if he has Identify as a spell, or the party Wizard can either pull out some scrolls of Identify, or he can use his Spell Mastery / Signarture Spell Identify to swap out first level spells (if he went that route). Hole up for a few hours and you are back in business.

It is becoming increasingly difficult to hinder the PCs with the exception of just throwing more monsters at them. Yawn. Boring.


I dislike loopholes and that is what I consider this to be. If there is a penalty for destroying an artifact with Disjunction, then it should apply equally to anyone who destroyed it. And one thing I do like about this particular rule is that mortal magic does not apply. Your Wizard (or Rogue) loses his spellcasting abilities, we are talking major quest to get them back.

I like that. It doesn't happen often enough in the game anymore (and yes, I realize that a given DM can force anything he wants, but that's not really what I am talking about).

It is not so much that it is penalizing a player and keeping him in check, it's that it is a serious plot device that forces the players to sit up and do something about it.

It's like Teleport. If you use it a lot, sooner or later it will bite you.

I actually prefer that major spells sometimes have consequences as opposed to keeping it all nice and safe for the PCs.