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Multiattack

doktorstick

First Post
Question about natural, secondary weapons.

If a minotaur attacks with an axe, can he use his gore attack if he does a full-attack action? What about if he gets 2 attacks/round with his axe? Does he get the gore?

Now... in that situation, does multiattack apply? Or do the attacks have to only be from natural weapons?

Thanks.
/ds
 
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Baalzebul

First Post
On a full attack action the Minotaur gets iterative attacks with its greataxe (+9/+4), as well as a secondary attack goring with its horns (+4). On an attack action, it could either use the greataxe (+9) or the horns (+9). If the attack line for the Minotaur read 'Huge greataxe +9/+4 melee; or gore +9 melee' then it would be one or the other and the gore would not be a secondary attack in that case.

While looking this up and comparing monsters in the MM I came up with a question of my own about Multiattack. The description of Multiattack (MM p11) lists that the prerequisite for the feat is 'three or more natural weapons'.

However, I noticed that the Athach and Marilith have Multiattack but do not have three or more natural weapons listed in their attacks. They both have primary attacks with manufactured weapons, and a secondary attack with a natural weapon. In addition, the Lizardfolk can either make three attacks with natural weapons (2 claws and bite) which qualifies them for Multiattack, or they can trade the 2 claw attacks for a greatclub but still employ the Multiattack feat so that they only have a -2 on the secondary attack with their bite.

There is also the case of the Salamander who for some reason is given permission to ignore the prerequisites for Multiattack as part of its description. It seems like even the writers of the MM didn't like the prerequisite for Multiattack.

The FAQ adds yet another case to consider when answering the question on nezumi characters mixing weapon and natural attacks in the Oriental Adventures section of the FAQ. I don't own OA, but judging from the dialogue in the FAQ nezumi have natural attacks something like 'claw; or bite'. If this is so then it seems like they also shouldn't meet the prerequisites for Multiattack yet the FAQ mentions that they could make use of it to reduce the penalties on a secondary attack with a natural weapon while using a manufactured weapon for their primary attacks.

So, possible conclusions?

Judging by the MM examples the prerequisite for Multiattack seems to be 'three or more attacks including at least one secondary attack with a natural weapon'. If the example of the nezumi from the FAQ is taken into account, the prerequisite seems to be 'two or more attacks including at least one secondary attack with a natural weapon'.

The only way I can see to uphold the written prerequisite of three or more natural weapons is if we're supposed to speculate on whether or not a creature has the potential to have three natural weapon attacks even if they are not listed as attacks on the creature's profile. It seems that this has been done in the MM but it I think it is sort of hit and miss as far as satisfying a prerequisite is concerned. For example, you could speculate that even though the minotaur has no listed natural attacks other than its gore it would be possible for it to make two claw or slam attacks instead of using its greataxe, and then also have its gore as a natural secondary attack. This would then satisfy the prerequisite and you could have a minotaur who has Multiattack instead of one of its other standard feats.

I checked the MM errata and the FAQ for possible changes to the prerequisites for Multiattack but both came up blank. I realize that by now I've overanalyzed this beyond all reason, so I'd appreciate if someone could stop my head from spinning and provide some insight on this. :)
 

Vanye

Explorer
Baalzebul said:
On a full attack action the Minotaur gets iterative attacks with its However, I noticed that the Athach and Marilith have Multiattack but do not have three or more natural weapons listed in their attacks.

Are you sure about this? The SRD lists the Marilith as having multiweapon fighting and multidexterity, not Multiattack. I do see that the Athach does have multiattack listed; maybe it's supposed to be multidexterity?
 

photon1966

First Post
I am still not clear on this?

Our Druid becomes a bear +8 str mod, with a 7/2 BAB. So does he get 2 claws of 15/10, or claw 15, claw 15, and Bite 10? Couldn't he use bite 15/10, or would that be less as it is a secondary attack?

Were confused?
 

mikebr99

Explorer
photon1966 said:
I am still not clear on this?

Our Druid becomes a bear +8 str mod, with a 7/2 BAB. So does he get 2 claws of 15/10, or claw 15, claw 15, and Bite 10? Couldn't he use bite 15/10, or would that be less as it is a secondary attack?

Were confused?

I would say so...;)

+8 STR modifier... that would make him a Brown Bear right?
They are +11 with their 2 claws, and +6 with their bite, After STR is added in.

If he does a standard attack, then he gets ONE claw attack at +11.

If he does a full attack, he gets 2 claw attacks at +11 each, and 1 bite attack at +6...
 

Dark Dragon

Explorer
mikebr99 said:


I would say so...;)

+8 STR modifier... that would make him a Brown Bear right?
They are +11 with their 2 claws, and +6 with their bite, After STR is added in.

If he does a standard attack, then he gets ONE claw attack at +11.

If he does a full attack, he gets 2 claw attacks at +11 each, and 1 bite attack at +6...

Huh ?! Why that? If the druid has a BAB of 7/2 and a STR-bonus of 8, it should be 15/10. If he does a full attack action as a bear, the attack values should be 15 / 10 (the claws) and 5 (bite), IMHO. Hmmm, ok, that's how I rule it for my druid (the DM has no problems with that). I use the druid's BAB and add the STR-bonus of the chosen form plus the number of attacks.

Perhaps I've misinterpreted the wild shape version from the MoW. Please correct me if it's the case.
 

mikebr99

Explorer
Dark Dragon said:


Huh ?! Why that? If the druid has a BAB of 7/2 and a STR-bonus of 8, it should be 15/10. If he does a full attack action as a bear, the attack values should be 15 / 10 (the claws) and 5 (bite), IMHO. Hmmm, ok, that's how I rule it for my druid (the DM has no problems with that). I use the druid's BAB and add the STR-bonus of the chosen form plus the number of attacks.

Perhaps I've misinterpreted the wild shape version from the MoW. Please correct me if it's the case.

No... you're right... partially. ;)

A Druid does retain his/her BAB (+7 in this case).

But each claw attack would be at +15... not +15/+10. And the bite is at +10. Both claws are primary 'weapons', and the bite is 'secondary'.

So, on a standard attack the bear gets only one claw attack.

And on a full attack gets both claws (at +15) and one bite (at +10).

Sorry for the confusion before... I went looking for the type of bear he was changing into and got sidetracked...
 

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