Multiclassing and Epic Progression

[willardthor]

Hi,

Consider for the sake of example a character who has 20 Fighter levels, and 20 Wizard levels.

1) Can the character cast spells as a level 20 Wizard, regardless of the order in which the character leveled these 40 levels?

2) Will the character only have two attacks per round (main hand) if he leveled all the Wizard levels first, eventhough the subsequent 20 levels give an 'epic attack bonus' of 10 (for a total of '20 attack')?

If yes to both questions, assuming for the sake of example that you are building a level 40 character (and therefore don't have to go through the pain of leveling it),

a) Is it then strictly better to level first all Fighter levels, and then all Wizard levels, to get that extra +10 attack and two extra attacks per round (main hand)?

b) Epic spells set aside, what does a Wizard lose from not advancing, say, 40 Wizard levels? Just the caster level to overcome spell resistance?

Thanks,
Willard.

 

[Jackinthegreen]

1: Yes. A character with 20 wizard levels is still a character with 20 wizard levels, regardless of when it takes them, with regards to spellcasting and most everything but BAB and saves.

2: Yes. The character would, strictly speaking, have a BAB of 10 since the rules say "...the character’s base attack bonus does not increase after character level reaches 20th." Likewise, the paragraph here says that adding a separate class would not grant its BAB or save progression since those are subsumed by an Epic character progression. However, this is inconsistent with monsters such as, say, the Hoary Hunter which is a fey, and as a fey it would normally get 1/2 its HD as BAB. Since it clearly has 4 attacks on a full attack, it also clearly has at least BAB +16. In fact, the entry for Base Attack says it's +23 which lines up with its 46 fey HD.

If one looks at a monster with racial HD and class levels, one can find the Frost Giant Jarl which has 14 giant levels and 8 blackguard levels, for total HD of 22. Despite hitting 20 HD though, its Blackguard levels still granted it 2 BAB. Supposedly 3.X was meant to keep things internally consistent and have pretty much the same rules for monsters as for player characters, but that obviously breaks down here.

In short, the Epic rules aren't consistent with actual printed material and this could lead to a DM deciding it's BS for a character to not at least get its best BAB up to +20. I am one of those who, if I were to DM, would call BS on it and let the character get its full BAB up to +20.

a: Assuming one still sticks to the rule that a character does not get BAB beyond level 20 even if it has classes that would get it to that point, then it's possible that the character would be better off taking the first 20 levels as fighter for the extra BAB and attacks.

b: Besides caster level, the wizard would lose a better familiar (as per Epic Wizard) as well as the extra feats granted by being an epic wizard.

 

[the Jester]

Hi,

Consider for the sake of example a character who has 20 Fighter levels, and 20 Wizard levels.

1) Can the character cast spells as a level 20 Wizard, regardless of the order in which the character leveled these 40 levels?

Yes.

2) Will the character only have two attacks per round (main hand) if he leveled all the Wizard levels first, eventhough the subsequent 20 levels give an 'epic attack bonus' of 10 (for a total of '20 attack')?

Yes.

If yes to both questions, assuming for the sake of example that you are building a level 40 character (and therefore don't have to go through the pain of leveling it),

a) Is it then strictly better to level first all Fighter levels, and then all Wizard levels, to get that extra +10 attack and two extra attacks per round (main hand)?

Well, yes, but that's generally considered a terrible build either way- you'd be far better off with at least some levels in a "decent BAB and some spellcasting" prestige class.

b) Epic spells set aside, what does a Wizard lose from not advancing, say, 40 Wizard levels? Just the caster level to overcome spell resistance?

And bonus wizard feats.

But think about that; you're talking about a difference of 20 points in attempts to overcome SR- that's the entire value of the die. And that's a "sorry, fail" for any spell that you're rolling to penetrate SR on. IMHO that's huge.

 

[Tequila Sunrise]

Yes, and yes.

More often than not, the epic rules are terribad.

 

[willardthor]

Thanks for the replies folks.

More often than not, the epic rules are terribad.

I realise this the more I look at them

But think about that; you're talking about a difference of 20 points in attempts to overcome SR- that's the entire value of the die. And that's a "sorry, fail" for any spell that you're rolling to penetrate SR on. IMHO that's huge.

I would never make such a build either. But, given that spells become gradually less useful as monsters get gradually higher SR and saves, self-buffing and meleeing becomes an increasingly better way to go. In such a game, having more attacks is a "win", and getting four main-hand attacks is impossible if you don't level the first 20 levels correctly.

 

[Jackinthegreen]

Keep in mind how open-ended epic spellcasting is, and that the monsters were built with the assumption that you have spells which are still effective. Sometimes that's metamagic versions of standard spells, but other times it's going to be something you create yourself (well, with the DM too)