D&D 5E Multiclassing discussion

[Li Shenron]

While we're at it, has anybody actually tried to play a multiclass spellcaster in 5e or seen one in play?

I specifically mean, a character with 2 spellcasting classes, i.e. Cleric/Wizard, Cleric/Druid or Druid/Wizard (or even Cleric/Druid/Wizard). I am interested in knowing how the combined spellcasting works, how does the resulting character compare on the table with single-class spellcasters, because this was the main shortcoming of 3e multiclassing rules.

 

[jrowland]

While we're at it, has anybody actually tried to play a multiclass spellcaster in 5e or seen one in play?

I specifically mean, a character with 2 spellcasting classes, i.e. Cleric/Wizard, Cleric/Druid or Druid/Wizard (or even Cleric/Druid/Wizard). I am interested in knowing how the combined spellcasting works, how does the resulting character compare on the table with single-class spellcasters, because this was the main shortcoming of 3e multiclassing rules.

I'm only 4th level (2 Wizard/2Druid), but so far I like it and I don't feel like I am struggling in the spellcasting department. My party-mates all have a feat/Stat-bump which I do not.

I made sure to have "scaleable" spells handy so I can use those 2nd level slots. I *think* I have more total spells than Wiz4 or Drd4, I'd have to double check.

So far so good. I get the sense that what I'll miss in iconic spells (no fireball for me at 5th level) I make up for in a scaled-up spell, at least for damage. I'll probably think differently about spells like Fly, eg. once we hit mid-levels.

 

[ren1999]

I recreated a pathfinder character Bard/Rogue, using the last 5th edition play-test rules for multi-classing and it worked out o.k.

kira3696.tripod.com
My 5th Edition Play-Test Tracker, Phablet version coming soon.

 

[Dausuul]

Okay, I have finally run across what looks like a legit Next multiclassing exploit: Play a wizard with your first two levels in fighter. This gets you Action Surge, which allows you to open a fight with two spells on the same round. The ability even refreshes after a short rest! As side benefits, you get a big AC boost from being able to wear plate and shield, six extra hit points, and a low-powered but still useful Second Wind.

I haven't tested this in practice, but Next spells are very potent and all experience with past editions indicates that two spells in the same round is enormously powerful. The loss of two wizard levels hurts a lot at the low end, but if you're starting in the level 11+ range it's not nearly as big a deal.

Needless to say, multiclass stat requirements do not affect this at all. You'd want your first level in fighter anyway, for the hit points.

 

[Wyckedemus]

"just roleplay it" is too general to be an answer, and it borders on being an ad hominem, can you give me a more cnrete example of how does it solve this issue? By changing her ways I didn.t mean "I've changed, now when I murder people on their sleep I pray to the god on their behalf, oh hw good I've turned out", I meant: to stop using poison and instead trying to learn how to heal people (considering my character WIS will be abysmally low or I wouldn't be prevented form going cleric). To stop murdering people in their sleep and instead learn to fight openly in defense of others (taking int account that my character will just keep getting better at doing the former and wil always get squashed when attempting the later),obviously there will be times when temptation of resuming old habits will resume, but when this change involves no longer doing what I used to do, and I.'m not allowed to start doing something different, how then am I supossed to keep helping my party?. Why is my character prevented from doing something reasonable (this isn't really outrageous) with multiclasing just beacause it wasn't propperly balanced? (Because something that rellies on static limits on what is one of the most common dials out there isn't really balanced)

Here's an example of something similar. Let's look at it both in real life, and in the terms of a game (Let's say a d20 Modern game based on our world.) The person/character is a boxer who moonlights as muscle for people who want a big guy around. He fights, and he's gotten his head beat in quite a few times. One day, he hits his opponent in a boxing match, who is killed. The boxer vows never to fight again. Instead he wants to help people. He decides to become a doctor. He has no history in this field before. Is he now a doctor? Should he be a full-fledged doctor in the game?

Or in reality, does he realize that as much as he wants to help people, being a doctor is out of his reach for the time being. He can take First Aid-CPR training, and maybe be a bodyguard focused on protecting people. Maybe he goes to school to become a nurse or med-tech, and that takes time. Maybe a volunteer firefighter. There are other ways.

In your example, we know your character wants to stop acting like an assassin, but he still wants to adventure. Here are some options that make sense in a story.

- After talking with the DM about the interest in the change of the character's story, the DM agrees that this is a very interesting plot twist, and the ex-assassin has a divine calling and is imbued with the powers of a cleric, despite not meeting the requirements.

- If there is no divine calling, the character can become a devoted lay worshipper (like many faithful volunteers within a congregtation). They are untrained in the faith and are not going to be accepted by the leadership as a shepherd to the congregation with such short notice. The character can stay in their original Rogue class, and use the advice in the rulebooks (and the DM's help) to switch out the "assassin-like" abilities of their rogue class for more appropriate abilities. Essentially, modifying a Subclass.

- Possibly tied in to the suggestion above, the DM could also allow the ex-assassin to use the hinted at downtime mechanics to study in the new field long enough to overcome the ability score requirements (as that is the justification for them being there--time in training.)

- If that takes too long, maybe he uses the Altered Subclass suggestion, and instead of becoming a cleric, uses healing kits, and collecting/buying potions to help people. And using a feat or downtime, gains proficiency in the Medicine skill or Healer's Kit (whatever the game has), like being trained in first aid.

- Maybe they choose another class that suits their strengths and is a devoted lay worshipper and does all the Medicine/Healing training.

Those are just some ideas that make sense to me. That's the thing with me. It has to make sense.

... in my opinion.

 

[Sword of Spirit]

While we're at it, has anybody actually tried to play a multiclass spellcaster in 5e or seen one in play?

I specifically mean, a character with 2 spellcasting classes, i.e. Cleric/Wizard, Cleric/Druid or Druid/Wizard (or even Cleric/Druid/Wizard). I am interested in knowing how the combined spellcasting works, how does the resulting character compare on the table with single-class spellcasters, because this was the main shortcoming of 3e multiclassing rules.

I don't like the fact that they won't have access to higher level spells. Everyone focuses on slots. Scaling damage isn't what makes a full-caster interesting at high levels: its the ability to cast high-level spells.

I'm not even talking primarily about combat spells. I'm talking about teleport and planeshift, trap the soul, gate, earthquake, move earth, mass invisibility.

I'm hoping they will include a way for split classed spellcasters to gain access to at least, say, 7th level spells, but I'm not very hopeful.

 

[Falling Icicle]

I'm coming into this discussion a bit late, but I just wanted to share a few of my thoughts.

As far as proficiencies go, I honestly don't see a problem with getting all of the weapon and armor proficiencies of a class when you multiclass into it. Nobody is complaining that a single class fighter starts the game with every weapon and armor proficiency. So if it's okay for a single class character to get all of that with one level, why is it a problem for a multiclass character to get the same? Some people have suggested that people should only get one or two profs. from secondary classes. I think that's a terrible idea. Why should a fighter/wizard have more proficiencies than a wizard/fighter? By doing things like that, we're making the order in which you multiclass mechanically important, and I think that's a bad thing. It just leads to trap options and having to plan your character build in advance lest you make an inferior character.

I don't think proficiencies are as big of a deal as people make them out to be. Martial weapons only do 1-2 more points of damage on average than simple weapons do. Plus, the proficiencies of many classes overlap. Wizards becoming fighters is really the most extreme example of the proficiencies that can be gained through multi-classing, and even then, I don't think it's as big of a deal as people are making it out to be. Wizards usually don't care much about weapon proficiencies anyway. Those that do are probably trying to build a "gish" type character, and that's really not a power play at all. If anything, I've found such characters to usually be weaker than single class wizards or fighters.

As for armor, again, I think people are overreacting. Heavy armor is really not that much better than light armor. It really isn't. It comes with all kinds of drawbacks that light armor doesn't have, plus, it doesn't let you use your Dex modifier. Sure, that means you don't need to invest anything in Dex to have a decent AC, but Dex has all kinds of other important uses that make it a valuable thing to sacrifice anyway. Heavy armor also tends to be quite expensive, and being a wizard has never been an inexpensive profession. Wizards can already get a really good AC anyway, and with defensive buffs like invisibility, mirror image, fly, stoneskin, etc., they don't depend as much on AC as other characters do. Putting yourself a level behind other wizards in getting new spells is a pretty big sacrifice to make. Taking a 1 level fighter dip to get heavy armor prof. is a respectable option, but it's far from overpowered IMO.

On the subject of ability requirements for multi-classing, I don't really like them. I feel like they're a poor way to balance multi-classing. They don't matter at all for some characters, but on the other hand can be a barrier to entry for legitimate and non-power-playing character concepts. I also don't think they really make any sense. If a multiclass wizards needs a 15 Int, why is it okay to play a single-class wizard with an 8 Int? If anything, the single class wizard should need Int more than the multiclass one. Not that I'm arguing for classes to have minimum ability requirements. I prefer the carrot to the stick. Right now, the only benefit to a higher magic ability modifier is save DCs and spell attack rolls. The problem is there are a lot of spells that don't have either of those things, so one's magic ability score doesn't make any difference for them. I think there needs to be more benefits to having a higher ability mod, such as bonus spells per day. I don't think the bonus spells per day table from 3.x would break the game, especially considering that ability scores are now capped at 20. At the very most, characters could get two bonus 1st level spells, and one bonus spell of 2nd through 5th.

 

[Majoru Oakheart]

Mind posting the build?

99% of these types of builds have errors.

The full details of this build are likely forgotten. It's been so many years. However, working from memory:

I took the background from Forgotten Realms that gave you proficiency in all martial weapons(which was later errata'd, if I remember correctly so the build would need a level of fighter or something now).

I took something like 7 or 9 levels of Warmage. Then I started taking 1 level of every Prestige Class in the game that gave +1 BAB at first level and +1 caster level. Dragon Slayer, Eldrich Knight, and Spellsword comes to mind. A couple of them I took more than one level of as long as every level I went up was +1 spell level and +1 BAB.

The feat I kept using was either in Complete Mage or Complete Warrior(there were 2 feats that did almost the same thing but one was better). It allowed you to swap a spell slot in order to add a bonus to hit equal to the spell slot sacrificed and +xd4 damage to the attack where x was the level of the spell sacrificed.

Sure, I could only cast Warmage 9th level spells, but I could cast 9th level spells. The class features from all the classes combined allowed me to cast with 0% spell failure chance. Though I can't remember if I had to make my armor mithril in order to do so.

 

[Majoru Oakheart]

While we're at it, has anybody actually tried to play a multiclass spellcaster in 5e or seen one in play?

Yes, my current character is 1 Wizard/4 Cleric. It's worked out very well. It was a little disappointing that I didn't get 3rd level spells at 5th level. However, I have the ability to cast Magic Missiles at 3rd level power which makes them pretty good.

I get just enough from multiclassing that it's worth it for flavour without losing so much that I'm not useful.

 

[Majoru Oakheart]

I don't like the fact that they won't have access to higher level spells. Everyone focuses on slots. Scaling damage isn't what makes a full-caster interesting at high levels: its the ability to cast high-level spells.

But that's exactly the point. By multiclassing, you are giving something up. That's the ability to cast those extremely powerful high level spells. You get something in exchange for it: More versatility in the spells you can cast and more spells prepared.

If you want the high level spells, don't multiclass. It's simple. I'm really glad there is a reason NOT to multiclass in this edition.