multiclassing: replacing xp penalties?

[Afrodyte]

What if, instead of having XP penalties for multiclass characters, there were instead skill and/or feat prerequisites to enter another class? For instance, to multiclass into fighter, you'd need some sort of armor proficiency and/or martial weapon proficiency. Or to multiclass into wizard, you'd need ranks in Spellcraft and/or Knowledge (arcana). Right off the bat, I can see two main benefits. First, it gets rid of multiclass XP penalties (at least, in the clumsy way WotC uses them). Second, it makes it easier to multiclass into classes that complement each other. However, for some classes, it doesn't necessarily follow that they would meet their own prerequisites. For instance, wizards don't need ranks in Spellcraft, nor do rangers need ranks in Survival or Knowledge (nature).

How would you go about making something like this work? Something I was considering was making certain class features contingent upon ranks in certain skills or the possession of certain feats. Not sure if it's feasible or desirable, but I'm open to better ways to implement a change like this.

 

[jmucchiello]

I think most people just ignore xp penalties. Is there a d20 game other than D&D that has favored classes and xp penalties for multiclassing? Most multiclasses are weaker than the straight class so there really is not reason to penalize them further.

Though your idea might have merit for certain prestige classes.

 

[Nifft]

Consider granting the prereqs free if it's your first level. So, every Ranger would get four free ranks in Survival, every Wizard would get four free ranks in Spellcraft, every Cleric would have Kn(Religion) 4, Bard Kn(History) 4, Fighter... uh... BAB +1?

-- N

 

[Afrodyte]

great idea!

Consider granting the prereqs free if it's your first level. So, every Ranger would get four free ranks in Survival, every Wizard would get four free ranks in Spellcraft, every Cleric would have Kn(Religion) 4, Bard Kn(History) 4, Fighter... uh... BAB +1?

You know, I actually hadn't thought of that! It would solve a quandary I've often had with the classes often not having enough skill points to branch out beyond the "necessary" skills (exceptions are bard and rogue; ranger to a lesser extent). The things listed for each class are freebies at for 1st-level characters but requisites for multiclassing into the class. Some of these things are already given in the PHB. I marked these with an asterisk. Here's something I'm just throwing out there as an idea.

Barbarian: BAB +1*, Intimidate and Survival 2+ ranks. Not sure about this one, though.

Bard: 3+ ranks in Perform.

Cleric: 2+ ranks in Concentration and Knowledge (religion), Weapon Focus (deity's favored weapon).

Druid: 2+ ranks in Handle Animal, Knowledge (nature), and Survival. Animal Affinity or Skill Focus (Handle Animal) can substitute for the Handle Animal skill prerequisite. Skill Focus (Knowledge (nature)) may substitute for the Knowledge (nature) skill requirement. Self-Sufficient or Skill Focus (Survival) can substitute for the Survival skill prerequisite.

Fighter: BAB +1* and Dodge, Point Blank Shot, Quick Draw, or Weapon Focus.

Monk: Improved Unarmed Strike* and 2+ ranks in Concentrate. Skill Focus (Concentration) may be used in lieu of the skill rank requirement.

Paladin: Mounted Combat and Knowledge (religion) and Ride 2+ ranks. Animal Affinity or Skill Focus (Ride) can be used in lieu of the skill ranks in Ride.

Ranger: As druid, but add Track*.

Rogue: 2+ ranks in three or four of the following: Balance, Bluff, Diplomacy, Disable Device, Disguise, Forgery, Gather Information, Hide, Intimidate, Move Silently, Open Lock, Sense Motive, Sleight of Hand, and Tumble. Deceitful, Negotiator, Nimble Fingers, Persuasive, and Stealthy may be substituted for ranks in the apprppriate skills.

Sorcerer: Eschew Materials and Concentration 2+ ranks.

Wizard: Knowledge (arcana) and Spellcraft 2+ ranks. Magical Aptitude or Skill Focus (Spellcraft) can replace the required ranks in Spellcraft.

 

[Aus_Snow]

Excellent idea. It's exactly what I was vaguely wondering about doing recently, but done properly.

I'll be using this for my D&D campaigns, as of today.

I think most of the last lot of prereq's posted are spot on, by the way. I'll see if I can post those for other classes (from the XPH and the 'Complete's etc.) some time soon.

 

[Nifft]

Barbarian: BAB +1*, Intimidate and Survival 2+ ranks. Not sure about this one, though.

Allow Persuasive to sub for Intimidate ranks, or just say you need to have come from a Barbarian culture -- DM's discretion.

Bard: 3+ ranks in Perform.

Good. Might want to add 2+ ranks Kn(History) or Kn(Royalty & Nobility).

Cleric: 2+ ranks in Concentration and Knowledge (religion), Weapon Focus (deity's favored weapon).

I'd vary this by deity. Some gods are more martial than others. A decent list of requirements might be...

Cleric: 2+ ranks of Kn(Religion), plus one of the following:
- Kord: Weapon Focus (Greatsword)
- Heironius: Weapon Focus (Longsword)
- Olidammera: 2+ Ranks each Disguise, Bluff, Sleight of Hand
- Hextor: Weapon Focus (Morningstar), 2+ Ranks Intimidate
- Boccob: 2+ Ranks Spellcraft
- Flarphagnugen*: 2+ ranks Survival or Kn(Geography), or Endurance
- Ehlonna: 2+ ranks Handle Animal or Kn(Nature)

Druid: 2+ ranks in Handle Animal, Knowledge (nature), and Survival. Animal Affinity or Skill Focus (Handle Animal) can substitute for the Handle Animal skill prerequisite. Skill Focus (Knowledge (nature)) may substitute for the Knowledge (nature) skill requirement. Self-Sufficient or Skill Focus (Survival) can substitute for the Survival skill prerequisite.

This seems like a lot... how about just 2+ ranks Kn(Nature) and Survival?

Fighter: BAB +1* and Dodge, Point Blank Shot, Quick Draw, or Weapon Focus.

I'd say just Weapon Focus would be enough of a prereq for Fighter (and Weapon Focus has a prereq of "BAB +1").

Monk: Improved Unarmed Strike* and 2+ ranks in Concentrate. Skill Focus (Concentration) may be used in lieu of the skill rank requirement.

I'd say just Improved Unarmed Strike. It's not that much use to anyone else.

Paladin: Mounted Combat and Knowledge (religion) and Ride 2+ ranks. Animal Affinity or Skill Focus (Ride) can be used in lieu of the skill ranks in Ride.

Ranger: As druid, but add Track*.

Rogue: 2+ ranks in three or four of the following: Balance, Bluff, Diplomacy, Disable Device, Disguise, Forgery, Gather Information, Hide, Intimidate, Move Silently, Open Lock, Sense Motive, Sleight of Hand, and Tumble. Deceitful, Negotiator, Nimble Fingers, Persuasive, and Stealthy may be substituted for ranks in the apprppriate skills.

Sorcerer: Eschew Materials and Concentration 2+ ranks.

Wizard: Knowledge (arcana) and Spellcraft 2+ ranks. Magical Aptitude or Skill Focus (Spellcraft) can replace the required ranks in Spellcraft.

There were a bunch of Feats in Complete Something that gave you three spell-like abilities per day, weren't there? One of those might be a good alternate prereq for Sorcerer.


-- N

* probably not the correct spelling...

 

[Liquidsabre]

Sounds like a good alternative to either using the multiclass XP penalties, but I'd try and keep the prereqs/freebies as small and simple as possible. Love the suggestions Nifft (especially the spell-like ability feats as prereqs for a sorcerer) and I think I'll be looking at introducing this variant for my own game once I look at it for a bit.

Neat idea guys, I like it!

 

[Bront]

I liked the options in Conan instead. Races (cultures) had a favored class/classes, and characters got extra feats every few levels they took in their favored class. (I think 1st, and then every 4th level, but not sure)

Now, this doesn't work quite as well with a PrC, though it rewards you for staying with the base classes, which could be a good thing. Of you could rule a PrC is a favored class if you used a favored class's skills/abilities to get into it.

 

[Afrodyte]

tweaks and expansions

Allow Persuasive to sub for Intimidate ranks, or just say you need to have come from a Barbarian culture -- DM's discretion.

I'd like to give DMs as much to work with as possible, so I'd avoid invoking Rule 0 on this concept. However, I'd change the barbarian's requisites to: Weapon Focus (a weapon that the barbarian is proficient in) and one of the following: Intimidate 2+ ranks, Persuasive, or Skill Focus (Intimidate).

Good. Might want to add 2+ ranks Kn(History) or Kn(Royalty & Nobility).

Given the Bardic Knowledge ability, it would seem appropriate. I'm not particularly against it, so it's probably a good idea to include it. I'd definitely put Knowledge (History) as a requirement now that you've mentioned it.

I'd vary this by deity. Some gods are more martial than others. A decent list of requirements might be...

Yeah, but this only works for Greyhawk, Forgotten Realms, and/or Eberron. While many campaigns use these settings, many do not, and I want things to be as generic as possible. The idea is certainly sound, though, for the settings that D&D as written supports. In any case, I think 2+ ranks in Knowledge (religion) is a given, but others may require further qualifications. Rather than specific deities, perhaps going by deity archetypes would work better. For instance:

War: Weapon Focus (deity's favored weapon) plus one of the following: Intimidate 2+ ranks, Persuasive, or Skill Focus (Intimidate).
Magic: Choose two of the following: Knowledge (arcana) 2+ ranks, Spellcraft 2+ ranks, Magical Aptitude, or Skill Focus (Knowledge (arcana)).
Death: Martial Weapon Proficiency (Scythe) and one of the following: Heal 2+ ranks, Self-Sufficient, or Skill Focus (Heal).
Love: Choose 2 of the following: Bluff 2+ ranks, Diplomacy 2+ ranks, Gather Information 2+ ranks, Perform (any) 2+ ranks, Sense Motive 2+ ranks, Negotiator, or Skill Focus (Bluff, Diplomacy, Gather Information, Perform, or Sense Motive).
Nature: Choose two of the following: Handle Animal 2+ ranks, Knowledge (nature) 2+ ranks, Survival 2+ ranks, Animal Affinity, Self-Sufficient, or Skill Focus (Handle Animal, Knowledge (nature), or Survival)
Sun or Fire: not sure
Water or Sea: 2+ ranks in Swim and either Knowledge (Nautical)* or Profession (sailor), Swim. This is where I think it would be useful to have a Navigate skill, but I'm trying to work with it within the confines of the current system.
Forge: Appraise and Craft (any related to metalworking) 2+ ranks
Trickery: 2+ ranks in two of the following skills: Bluff, Disguise, Escape Artist, Forgery, Sense Motive, or Sleight of Hand. Appropriate feats may be used in lieu of ranks in these skills.
Wisdom: 2+ ranks in two of the following: any Knowledge skill, Search, or Sense Motive. You may substitute one language for one rank in the preceding skills.

This seems like a lot... how about just 2+ ranks Kn(Nature) and Survival?

Mainly because of things like Wild Empathy and Animal Companion. Something about a druid lacking Handle Animals seems a bit . . . off.

I'd say just Weapon Focus would be enough of a prereq for Fighter (and Weapon Focus has a prereq of "BAB +1").

I was afraid of locking the fighter into a defined role, but now that I've thought about it, it's a rare fighter who doesn't take Weapon Focus, even fighters who prefer more tactical options.

I'd say just Improved Unarmed Strike. It's not that much use to anyone else.

I figured as much. Too bad Concentration doesn't have much use for non-spellcasters.

There were a bunch of Feats in Complete Something that gave you three spell-like abilities per day, weren't there? One of those might be a good alternate prereq for Sorcerer.

I'd have to find a place where I could look it up, write it down, and then apply it. I'm not in the habit of buying many RPG books lately, so going beyond the PHB, DMG, and Unearthed Arcana would be a bit too much for what I'm trying to do at the moment.

 

[solkan_uk]

That's quite an interesting idea, basically making all classes basically PrC's for the purposes of multi-classing. Have you played the new Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay as this works similar - but I hadn't thought of applying it to D&D before...

My initial thoughts are to make it as flexible as possible, and easy to do even at level 2. So as design notes have the following guidelines.
Skills: Requires no more than 2 ranks in any skill
Feats: No more than one feat, usually offering some choice.
Nothing else should really be prerequisites, as they require certain rolls (for attributes) or certain class/race.

As a further note, I quite like the concept of favoured classes in my games, as some minor way of keeping races in their assigned rolls, so I would allow a any race to take its favoured class without filling the prerequisites. This can represent the class having an almost instinctive feel for the class even if they don't know anything about it before hand.
Humans and others with any favoured class, can basically take a 2nd class free, before having to meet the prerequisites (or alternatively can ignore one of the prerequisites on each class they take?)

I'd also require all classes have 2 prerequites, either 2 skills or one skill and a feat. The domain division is a good one (require one prerequisite for each domain?) and I'd expand it to specialist wizards as well, require Spellcraft or Knowledge Arcana for Wizard + one requirement based on Specialism:
some quick examples (not a complete list - I don't have my books with me):
Abjuration: 2+ ranks Knowledge: the planes, knowledge: tactics, or the Dodge feat.
Conjuration: 2+ ranks Knowledge: the planes, any craft skill or Handle Animal.

etc etc.