Multiclassing saves

[Anubus]

Oh I do, I do. I quite enjoy watching the fighters desperately try to keep my beholder alive, and having them fall asleep while hanging from the side of a cliff.

 

[Negative Zero]

i don't see how this is a problem. multiclassing already imposes it's own lilitations. a 10th level character with a +20 save in say WILL, has a +0 in both FORT and REF. or at least a +0 in one of those and perhaps a +6-12 in the other. nice and neat, there's the balance.

not tomention the fact, that they'ed be nowhere near as capable as as any other 10th level character. the balance is already built into the system. i see no reason to change it. min/maxing, by its very nature means that for whatever one or two things he's good at, there are tons of other stuff that the character sucks at.

~NegZ

 

[Kahuna Burger]

i don't see how this is a problem. multiclassing already imposes it's own lilitations. a 10th level character with a +20 save in say WILL, has a +0 in both FORT and REF. or at least a +0 in one of those and perhaps a +6-12 in the other. nice and neat, there's the balance.

Maybe its just me, but 'balance' isn't the only issue here. Its a matter of playability. So the bizzarely multiclassed rogue/monk/bard/half a dozen ref heavy prestige classes has a reflex save that I have to instakill the rest of the party to scratch... It doesn't make me any happier that I have to instakill dexman with a fort effect to make it challanging to the fighter/barbarian/druid. While one character will certainly be better at something than another, I don't like it to be exagerated to that extent.

Of course, I'm not a kiler GM.

Kahuna Burger

 

[I'm A Banana]

So don't throw Ref saves at the party. Use his other weaknesses.

He's the one who did it to himself...don't be concerned about rarely tossing fireballs at them, for instance, but heavily using poisons and charms...

 

[Hardhead]

i don't see how this is a problem. multiclassing already imposes it's own lilitations. a 10th level character with a +20 save in say WILL, has a +0 in both FORT and REF. or at least a +0 in one of those and perhaps a +6-12 in the other. nice and neat, there's the balance.

Problem is, if you multiclass by taking lots of "two good save" classes, you can get them insanely high. As I said, I have a character in my party with a all saves +16 or higher. One is +20. So no, you *don't* necessarily have *any* bad saves, if you do it right.

 

[I'm A Banana]

Having a +20 at 13th level's no biggie...especially the price he paid in not being able to do much of his class's abilities very well.

That isn't 'insane.' That's just good. And he's paid the price for good saves (crappy BAB, crappy spellcasting, crappy class powers, multipule ability dependancy...).

You can set DC's at whatever point you desire, or challenge him through other-than-saving-throw methods, too.

 

[Anubus]

The point isn't challenging the player with a +20, the point is that he can get it at all. The fact that it can happen is the original topic I brought up, not what to do once it has happened, though that's good to discuss too.

 

[Tessarael]

It is entirely possible to multiclass to get good saves without suffering the penalty of lower BAB etc ... You just have to choose the right level for each class: even levels if your BAB is 1/2, level divisible by 4 if your BAB is 3/4. I can generate a character who has +16 base Reflex save at 20th level.

I think multiclassing becomes somewhat broken for saves and BAB with multiple classes. I've seen solutions discussed elsewhere, I forget who suggested these originally, but here's a solution that results in max. base save of +12 at 20th level, and slightly better BAB progression. If you implement these house rules, it will discourage multiclassing for the sake of getting good saves.

If you have a good save, your saves are (round down):
2+(good_save_levels*10/20)+((bad_save_levels+1)*6/20)

If you don't have a good save, your saves are (round down):
((bad_save_levels+1)*6/20)

BAB is simply (round down):
(good_BAB_levels*1)+(average_BAB_levels*0.75)+(poor_BAB_levels*0.5)

I put together a spreadsheet to make it easier for people. I've posted it here:
http://www.ocf.berkeley.edu/~chinnery/saving_throws_and_bab.xls.gz
It's a 5K gzipped Excel file.

Hope this helps.

 

[Planesdragon]

My solution

It's hardly unique, but IMC I give the classes a fractional BAB and save adjustment, and give the "good" saves a +2 bonus at 1st character level;

I'll probably expand this first part into "training", but for the moment the "+2 to good saves of first class" rule works good enough.

 

[Grog]

It is entirely possible to multiclass to get good saves without suffering the penalty of lower BAB etc ... You just have to choose the right level for each class: even levels if your BAB is 1/2, level divisible by 4 if your BAB is 3/4.

I'm not sure what you mean here. For any class that doesn't have a +1 BAB/level progression, the BAB of the class' first level is always +0. It doesn't matter what level the character is when he multiclasses.

So unless you manage to multiclass only into classes with the best BAB progression, your BAB will take a hit from multiclassing. Also, if you multiclass into a bunch of different classes, you'll be missing out on a lot of higher level class abilities. Seems like a pretty high price to pay just to get a really good save or two.