D&D 5E Multiple attacks and their consequences

[empireofchaos]

Haven't seen this topic addressed with respect to the 5e rules, but there are a couple of issues that require clarification.

If a creature (or character) has the multiple attacks feature, it seems (though it is not explicitly specified) that all of the attacks take place at nearly the same time, i.e. on that creature's turn in the initiative order. But:

1) What happens if another creature/character is in the same place in the initiative order? If you use Dex score as a tie-breaker (which I don't, but anyway), how would you determine the order of attacks (e.g. a creature with two attacks and a higher Dex vs. a creature with one attack and a lower Dex, but both rolled an adjusted 10, e.g. in the initiative order)?

2) If a creature with multiple attacks kills/knocks out an opponent with fewer attacks than the total it has available, can it switch the remaining attacks to another creature? (I guess another way of asking this question is, how many people use the Cleave-Through rules from p. 272 in the DMG, especially against PCs?)?

3) Does the massive damage rule apply to multiple attacks if all taken in a single turn from a single source? (E.g. a 5th level fighter with 2 attacks is fighting a goblin with a total 10 hp. She hits him twice, doing 10 damage each time. Has the goblin sustained a massive injury (and is therefore dead), or does the fighter have to do 20 hp damage with a single blow to have this effect?

4) Does anyone break up the initiative of multi-attack creatures/characters as a house rule? E.g. roll three separate initiatives for a troll with two claw attacks and one bite? Obviously, this would be undesirable as a regular rule if you have lots of combats and combatants, but it might be warranted if a party faces a single creature with multiple attacks. Things won't bog down, and it would eliminate potential problems related to question 3). Anyway, that's kind of how it worked in earlier editions (if you used weapon speed).

 

[Jediking]

1) If it is with 2 PCs I let them decide. Between others, I either use higher Initiative mod. or just call it depending on the situation.

2) A creature can split their attacks among any targets on it's turn. So if it can use three attacks, and the first attack kills a PC, it still has two attacks. Note that creatures can split up their movement between any attacks, so it could attack-move-attack-move-attack. The Cleave-Through rule applies to a single attack to an adjacent creature within 5 ft of the target, which is a separate thing from your intended question.

3) It applies to a single attack. In your example with the goblin with 10 hp, the goblin would be killed after one attack and the fighter would still have his/her second attack to use.

4) I haven't really heard too much of breaking up for Multiattacks. It may be useful for a Boss-type creature, but the use of minions is always a good thing too. Legendary Actions are used in cases to help alleviate the dog-pile effect. Giving several turns to the same creature could work, but you would need to be careful with it's movement speed, reactions, and possible bonus action. I think this would be cleared up for you when you see that attacks (and movement) can be split up.

 

[AaronOfBarbaria]

1) 5th edition suggests handling ties in the initiative order by having monsters/NPCs always lose ties to PCs, and any monster-to-monster or PC-to-PC ties being handled by decision of the person(s) in control of the tied creatures. I go with that.

For simplicity sake, I have a creature's turn resolve in its entirety before letting any other creature act unless they have reactions that apply to the situation at hand - so whichever creature won the tie would make all their attacks before the creature that lost the tie.

2) Attacks are made in series and are each entirely resolved before the next resolves, so yes a creature with multiple attacks can choose a different target based on the results of their earlier resolved attacks.

I also happen to use the cleave rules, but they don't apply all that often (and especially not against PCs) because they only come into play when a creature is reduced from maximum hit points to 0 hit points in a single attack.

3) Single source.

4) That's not a good rule at all, will always bog down combat, and anything gained from this method is entirely outweighed by the added complication of having to remember which one of those multiple initiatives is the one that any "your next turn" effects trigger off of, reactions and movement are replenished, and then track how much movement has been used and which attacks of a multi-attack have already been done. It adds complexity where complexity is of no meaningful benefit.

 

[Illithidbix]

If a creature (or character) has the multiple attacks feature, it seems (though it is not explicitly specified) that all of the attacks take place at nearly the same time, i.e. on that creature's turn in the initiative order. But:

Yep, multiple attacks is just a variant of using the Attack Action on your turn. You take your action (and move and maybe use your bonus action and even reaction). Multiple attacks changes nothing about the Initiative procedure.

1) What happens if another creature/character is in the same place in the initiative order? If you use Dex score as a tie-breaker (which I don't, but anyway), how would you determine the order of attacks (e.g. a creature with two attacks and a higher Dex vs. a creature with one attack and a lower Dex, but both rolled an adjusted 10, e.g. in the initiative order)?

To quote the PHB for tiebreakers

The DM ranks the combatants in order from the one with the highest Dexterity check total to the one with the lowest. This is the order (called the initiative order) in which they act during each round. The initiative order remains the same from round to round.

If a tie occurs, the DM decides the order among tied DM-controlled creatures, and the players decide the order among their tied characters. The DM can decide the order if the tie is between a monster and a player character. Optionally, the DM can have the tied characters and monsters each roll a d20 to determine the order, highest roll going first.

However it's decided the Initiative order of every round remains fixed for the whole combat and a combatant will take their whole turn before moving onto the creature/character in the initiative order

2) If a creature with multiple attacks kills/knocks out an opponent with fewer attacks than the total it has available, can it switch the remaining attacks to another creature? (I guess another way of asking this question is, how many people use the Cleave-Through rules from p. 272 in the DMG, especially against PCs?)?

Yes, you can. You choose the target as you make the attack roll, you don't need to decide before hand.

You can also move before, after or BETWEEN multiple attacks, as explained on page 190 of the PHB

If you take an action that includes more than one weapon attack, you can break up your movement even further by moving between those attacks. For example, a fighter who can make two attacks with the Extra Attack feature and who has a speed of 25 feet could move 10 feet, make an attack, move 15 feet, and then attack again.

3) Does the massive damage rule apply to multiple attacks if all taken in a single turn from a single source? (E.g. a 5th level fighter with 2 attacks is fighting a goblin with a total 10 hp. She hits him twice, doing 10 damage each time. Has the goblin sustained a massive injury (and is therefore dead), or does the fighter have to do 20 hp damage with a single blow to have this effect?

The massive damage rule state “When a creature takes damage from a single source equal to or greater than half it's hit point maximum”

- It is a bit ambiguous, but personally I'm pretty sure it's meant to be read as a single attack is a single source, multiple attacks from one character is still multiple sources.
Otherwise I'd expect the language to be about the total damage you take in a turn.

4) Does anyone break up the initiative of multi-attack creatures/characters as a house rule? E.g. roll three separate initiatives for a troll with two claw attacks and one bite? Obviously, this would be undesirable as a regular rule if you have lots of combats and combatants, but it might be warranted if a party faces a single creature with multiple attacks. Things won't bog down, and it would eliminate potential problems related to question 3). Anyway, that's kind of how it worked in earlier editions (if you used weapon speed).

A number of effects last until the start of your next turn, or the end of your next turn, or the end of the target's next turn. A number of spells kick in on the start of the target's next turn.

If you wanted to house rule that, you might have to have all such things happen at only one point (the creatures highest initiative count?) There is also a question of whether the monster could also move on their later initiative counts.
Also your reaction refreshes at the start of your turn.
Legendary actions and specialized reaction are the method of getting big monsters attacks outside their turn.

 

[Hriston]

1. You could also resolve all turns on the same initiative count simultaneously, or (and I think this is where you're going with your question) have the creature with two attacks go first and last and have the creature with one attack go in the middle.



4. I do this in two places. I have fighters take the second action of an Action Surge at iniative minus ten, and I use a house rule whereby archers can take a second shot at their initiative minus ten if they don't move on their turn.

 

[Tony Vargas]

Haven't seen this topic addressed with respect to the 5e rules, but there are a couple of issues that require clarification.

Multiple attacks/round have always been a little problematic....

If a creature (or character) has the multiple attacks feature, it seems (though it is not explicitly specified) that all of the attacks take place at nearly the same time, i.e. on that creature's turn in the initiative order.

Yes. Though, that's a pretty abstract thing. While initiative is 'turn based' the idea is still that everyone is active the entire round.

But:

1) What happens if another creature/character is in the same place in the initiative order? If you use Dex score as a tie-breaker (which I don't, but anyway), how would you determine the order of attacks (e.g. a creature with two attacks and a higher Dex vs. a creature with one attack and a lower Dex, but both rolled an adjusted 10, e.g. in the initiative order)?

You use something as a tie-breaker. DEX mod is (or was in some playtest or past edition) the actual rule - a second, contested initiative roll, or a coin toss or whatever the DM rules on. Whoever wins then takes their whole turn.

2) If a creature with multiple attacks kills/knocks out an opponent with fewer attacks than the total it has available, can it switch the remaining attacks to another creature?

Yes. AFAIK, it can even use any remaining movement to bring a new target into reach/range before doing so.

3) Does the massive damage rule apply to multiple attacks if all taken in a single turn from a single source?

That's not how I'd read it, but you're free to rule that way, of course.

4) Does anyone break up the initiative of multi-attack creatures/characters as a house rule?

I don't.
You could think of Legendary creatures working that way, in a sense, though.

 

[the Jester]

1) What happens if another creature/character is in the same place in the initiative order? If you use Dex score as a tie-breaker (which I don't, but anyway), how would you determine the order of attacks (e.g. a creature with two attacks and a higher Dex vs. a creature with one attack and a lower Dex, but both rolled an adjusted 10, e.g. in the initiative order)?

IMC tied initiative goes to the highest initiative bonus, then highest Dex, then roll off.

2) If a creature with multiple attacks kills/knocks out an opponent with fewer attacks than the total it has available, can it switch the remaining attacks to another creature? (I guess another way of asking this question is, how many people use the Cleave-Through rules from p. 272 in the DMG, especially against PCs?)?

IMC: Yes, as long as you haven't already rolled the attack. But I don't use the "Cleave Through" option.

3) Does the massive damage rule apply to multiple attacks if all taken in a single turn from a single source? (E.g. a 5th level fighter with 2 attacks is fighting a goblin with a total 10 hp. She hits him twice, doing 10 damage each time. Has the goblin sustained a massive injury (and is therefore dead), or does the fighter have to do 20 hp damage with a single blow to have this effect?

20 hp in a single blow. Note that, since he's down, if you hit, it's an automatic crit; if the damage doesn't kill the target outright, you still inflict two failed death saves.

4) Does anyone break up the initiative of multi-attack creatures/characters as a house rule? E.g. roll three separate initiatives for a troll with two claw attacks and one bite? Obviously, this would be undesirable as a regular rule if you have lots of combats and combatants, but it might be warranted if a party faces a single creature with multiple attacks. Things won't bog down, and it would eliminate potential problems related to question 3). Anyway, that's kind of how it worked in earlier editions (if you used weapon speed).

Oh God no. And I think you vastly underestimate how messy that would be. When would the troll move? If it has a bonus action, when does it get to use it? When does its reaction recharge? Gah. There's no gain for all that pain (IMHO).

 

[empireofchaos]

If a creature (or character) has the multiple attacks feature, it seems (though it is not explicitly specified) that all of the attacks take place at nearly the same time, i.e. on that creature's turn in the initiative order.

Ah, I see it actually is made explicit, but in the MM, p. 11 ("A creature that can make multiple attacks on its turn has the Multiattack ability"). Durn tricephalous core rules!

You could also resolve all turns on the same initiative count simultaneously, or (and I think this is where you're going with your question) have the creature with two attacks go first and last and have the creature with one attack go in the middle.

Yeah, that's what I was getting at. The other respondents here are suggesting (and it seems to be RAW) that whatever system of tie-breaks you are using, all the multiattacks take place before another creature can act. I do tend to use simultaneous resolution if there is a tie in the initiative order (so that two creatures can kill one another - happens sometimes).

The Cleave-Through rule applies to a single attack to an adjacent creature within 5 ft of the target, which is a separate thing from your intended question.

Well, it's related, in the sense that if a creature with two attacks cleaves through an opponent with the first attack and is already doing damage to another creature, it would make no logical sense to prohibit the second attack from doing damage against that creature as well.

It is a bit ambiguous, but personally I'm pretty sure it's meant to be read as a single attack is a single source, multiple attacks from one character is still multiple sources.
Otherwise I'd expect the language to be about the total damage you take in a turn.

The impact of massive damage/attacks that cause instant death was the main thing I was interested in in this thread (I figured I would throw in the other questions, though they did seem more clear-cut). And I wasn't questioning whether the attack has to come from a single source or creature, I was asking whether it had to be a single attack, or, conversely, the entirety of a multiattack sequence.

I agree with the linguistic distinction you are drawing at the end here. But one's reading is pretty significant, since if the answer is multiattack sequence, character death would be significantly more common. If it's a single attack, then it would be as rare as people aver in other threads here.

4. I do this in two places. I have fighters take the second action of an Action Surge at iniative minus ten, and I use a house rule whereby archers can take a second shot at their initiative minus ten if they don't move on their turn.

Yeah, I'm toying with this idea, too, but I'll have to think more about how much doing this will bog things down, viz.:

4) That's not a good rule at all, will always bog down combat, and anything gained from this method is entirely outweighed by the added complication of having to remember which one of those multiple initiatives is the one that any "your next turn" effects trigger off of, reactions and movement are replenished, and then track how much movement has been used and which attacks of a multi-attack have already been done. It adds complexity where complexity is of no meaningful benefit.

Well, as I was saying, I would consider this as an exceptional rule in cases where there is only a single opponent. The benefit would be to give creatures with fewer attacks a greater chance to react/slay the opponent that has multiple attacks before it has a chance to just mow through you with all of its attacks simultaneously. Remembering triggers would be a complication, it's true, but not so bad if you're dealing with a single creature.

 

[Hriston]

Double post V_V

 

[Hriston]

Yeah, that's what I was getting at. The other respondents here are suggesting (and it seems to be RAW) that whatever system of tie-breaks you are using, all the multiattacks take place before another creature can act. I do tend to use simultaneous resolution if there is a tie in the initiative order (so that two creatures can kill one another - happens sometimes).

Yeah, turns are discreet RAW, but I see no harm in resolving attacks and movement simultaneously, and (if opponents have multiple attacks) describing the melee as a trading of blows. When simultaneous movement and actions conflict, the DM can adjudicate how they interact. It's nothing to be afraid of.

Yeah, I'm toying with this idea, too, but I'll have to think more about how much doing this will bog things down, viz.:

I thought about having creatures with multiple attacks roll multiple initiatives as well, but settled for the initiative minus ten mechanic (and then only for Action Surge and my houserule for bows, blowguns, and thrown daggers and darts) for a few reasons. 1) My goal in all this is to emulate 1e, and in that edition only creatures with multiple attack routines had their attacks broken up throughout the round. A claw/claw/bite attack, for example, was considered a single attack routine and would not be broken up, whereas a high level fighter with multiple attacks would be considered to have more than one attack routine. There is no one-to-one equivalency, but the way I've adapted this into 5e is if it only takes a single action it doesn't get broken up. Multiattack is an action. Extra Attack also takes a single action. Action Surge however grants an extra action, so I have that action resolve on the fighter's initiative minus ten. I got the idea of using initiative minus ten from the rogue ability. I think it's a little more tidy than rolling initiative for each action because 2) when you roll initiative separately for each action you're giving the fighter adavantage on his first initiative count. This may be desirable when trying to emulate 1e, but it interacts badly with static initiative, and probably some other game elements.