Multiple Resist Energies

[Patryn of Elvenshae]

Multiple sources of resistance to a different type stack with each other.

Well, not stack, really - since only one or the other would apply, there's really no issue of stacking.

Resist energy - Fire and Resist Energy - Cold, are sources of resistance to a different type.

I don't understand why you translate "multiple sources" into "different spells/abilities" only?

Because the rules tell us what happens when you get the "same effect with differing results."

And, since you can counterspell a Resist Energe (Cold) with your own Resist Energy (Not Yet Specified), they are the same spell, and they are therefore the same effect.

 

[Jimlock]

Well, not stack, really - since only one or the other would apply, there's really no issue of stacking.

ok..ok...ok....
let's correct that then

Multiple sources of resistance to a certain energy type don’t stack with each other
=
Multiple sources of resistance to a different type "work" with each other.

And, since you can counterspell a Resist Energe (Cold) with your own Resist Energy (Not Yet Specified), they are the same spell, and they are therefore the same effect.

And I can counterspell a polymorph (lion) with a polymorph (Not yet specified) as well.
What does that prove?

Because the rules tell us what happens when you get the "same effect with differing results."

So lets see what the rules tell us:

SRD:



Same Effect with Differing Results: The same spell can sometimes produce varying effects if applied to the same recipient more than once. Usually the last spell in the series trumps the others. None of the previous spells are actually removed or dispelled, but their effects become irrelevant while the final spell in the series lasts.

=

Same Effect with Differing Results: The same spell can sometimes produce varying effects if applied to the same recipient more than once. Usually the last spell in the series trumps the others (usually, the latter effect trumps the former one). (When that usually happens) None of the previous spells are actually removed or dispelled, but their effects become irrelevant while the final spell in the series lasts.

Resist energy is not subject to this Usually, because:

Resist Energy - Fire, DOES NOT trump Resist Energy - Cold.

the last spell in the series DOES NOT trump the other, the latter effect DOES NOT trump the former one.

 

[Greenfield]

Not to be rude, but your logic breaks down to:

Resist Fire and Resist Cold can work together because Resist Fire and Resist Cold can work together.

You used your premise as proof of the argument supporting the premise.

If I cast False Life and roll a 3 on my D10, then cast it again to try for a better result and roll a 1, which one applies? The answer is 3. They don't "stack", you get the higher result.

That's the exception to the "usually" you highlighted.

But Resist Energy is a single spell, no matter which energy type you apply it to. Same for Endure Elements and Protection from Energy spells.

The fact that the spells explicitly say you can't combine Resist and Protection spells for the same energy is actually irrelevant to the discussion. That's a specific prohibition, independent of the topic at hand. It might just as well have said that you can't use one of them on a Tuesday.

The specific question is, can you cast the same non-instantaneous spell multiple times on the same target and gain the full benefit each time? The answer is no. It's written quite clearly that you can't. It even goes so far as to say that you can't, even if the spell produces a different effect each time. The example they give isn't specific for Resist Energy spells, and implies a reasoning that makes sense for Polymorph and not for Resist Energy, but they can't always make examples out of the exact spell issues we're interested in at the moment.

With or without examples that are exactly on point, the rule itself says no.

 

[Jimlock]

Not to be rude, but your logic breaks down to:

Resist Fire and Resist Cold can work together because Resist Fire and Resist Cold can work together.

Eexactly

If I cast False Life and roll a 3 on my D10, then cast it again to try for a better result and roll a 1, which one applies? The answer is 3. They don't "stack", you get the higher result.

That's the exception to the "usually" you highlighted.

That is not so. False life is not subject to this rule.

Multiple False Life-s do not produce "varying effects", they produce "different strengths" of the same effect.

False Life is subject to:

Same Effect More than Once in Different Strengths
In cases when two or more identical spells are operating in the same area or on the same target, but at different strengths, only the best one applies.

In PHB the text continues with an explicit example on Ray of Enfeeblement (PHB, p172).

The fact that the spells explicitly say you can't combine Resist and Protection spells for the same energy is actually irrelevant to the discussion. That's a specific prohibition, independent of the topic at hand. It might just as well have said that you can't use one of them on a Tuesday.

The text does NOT explicitly say you can't combine Resist and Protection spells for the same energy.

It explicitly says that you can't combine Multiple sources of the same energy type.

Very Different from what you say, and quite relevant indeed.

Multiple sources means anything from "the same spell", to "a spell & a racial/class ability"

So again:

Multiple sources of resistance to a certain energy type don’t stack with each other
=
Multiple sources of resistance to a different type "work" with each other.


Now lets go back to Same "Effect with Differing Results".

Since False Life is not the exception to the "usually", lets see which spells are.

1-Comprehend Languages
The spell enables you to understand or read an unknown language, not speak or write it.

Under "Effect with Differing Results", you can cast Comprehend Languages on the same target multiple times.

The fact that he now understands yet another language, does not trump the fact that he understands another language (ability provided by a previously cast Comprehend Languages).

2-Blindness/Deafness
You call upon the powers of unlife to render the subject blinded or deafened, as you choose.

Under "Effect with Differing Results", you can render a subject both blind and deaf, because being blind, does not trump being deaf, and vice versa. (even though the spell is Permanent, it is also (D), which means it is not a one off magical effect).

3-Mnemonic Enhancer
Casting this spell allows you to prepare additional spells or retain spells recently cast. Pick one of these two versions when the spell is cast.

Prepare
You prepare up to three additional levels of spells. A cantrip counts as ½ level for this purpose. You prepare and cast these spells normally.

Retain
You retain any spell of 3rd level or lower that you had cast up to 1 round before you started casting the mnemonic enhancer. This restores the previously cast spell to your mind.

In either event, the spell or spells prepared or retained fade after 24 hours (if not cast).

Not any combination of the spell's versions trumps another.


4-Resist Energy
This abjuration grants a creature limited protection from damage of whichever one of five energy types you select: acid, cold, electricity, fire, or sonic.

Under "Effect with Differing Results", being protected from fire does not trump being protected from cold.


.....there are more examples of course................


And now lets see when this "Usually", DOES apply.(because a latter effect trumps the former one).


1-Disguise Self
You make yourself—including clothing, armor, weapons, and equipment—look different. You can seem 1 foot shorter or taller, thin, fat, or in between.

Under "Effect with Differing Results", whenever the new form/texture/color etc. specified trumps the former one, the latter specification prevails.

2-Alter Self
You assume the form of a creature of the same type as your normal form. The new form must be within one size category of your normal size. The maximum HD of an assumed form is equal to your caster level, to a maximum of 5 HD at 5th level. You can change into a member of your own kind or even into yourself.

Under "Effect with Differing Results", the new form trumps the former one. The latter form prevails.
The same stands for all related transmutations: Polymorph, Polymorph Any Object, Shapechange.

3-Suggestion
You influence the actions of the target creature by suggesting a course of activity (limited to a sentence or two). The suggestion must be worded in such a manner as to make the activity sound reasonable. Asking the creature to do some obviously harmful act automatically negates the effect of the spell.

Under "Effect with Differing Results", whenever the latter suggestion trumps the former one, the latter takes precedence.
The same thing stands with: Geas-Lesser, Geas/Quest, Demand.

4-Secret Page
Secret page alters the contents of a page so that they appear to be something entirely different. The text of a spell can be changed to show even another spell.

Under "Effect with Differing Results", the latter altered-content trumps the former one. The latter altered-content prevails.

5-Control Weather
You change the weather in the local area. It takes 10 minutes to cast the spell and an additional 10 minutes for the effects to manifest. You can call forth weather appropriate to the climate and season of the area you are in.


Under "Effect with Differing Results", the latter weather conditions trump the former ones. The latter weather conditions prevail.

.....again.....there are more examples of course................

But Resist Energy is a single spell, no matter which energy type you apply it to. Same for Endure Elements and Protection from Energy spells.

No. Resist Energy is a single spell that can produce "varying effects". So can Protection from Energy.

Endure Elements is totally different.

Endure Elements does not produce "varying effects". It always protect the subject from ALL conditions at the same time. You do not get to choose the conditions.

The specific question is, can you cast the same non-instantaneous spell multiple times on the same target and gain the full benefit each time? The answer is no. It's written quite clearly that you can't.

The answer is no?
Honestly, I do not see anywhere, anything "clearly written" that says that you can't.

What is written quite clearly is this:

Same Effect with Differing Results: The same spell can sometimes produce varying effects if applied to the same recipient more than once. Usually the last spell in the series trumps the others. None of the previous spells are actually removed or dispelled, but their effects become irrelevant while the final spell in the series lasts.

=

Same Effect with Differing Results: The same spell can sometimes produce varying effects if applied to the same recipient more than once. Usually the last spell in the series trumps the others (usually, the latter effect trumps the former one). (When that usually happens) None of the previous spells are actually removed or dispelled, but their effects become irrelevant while the final spell in the series lasts.

Perhaps you do not agree with the above translation?

IMO, this is the only translation, and that is so, because otherwise, the word "Usually" does not make ANY cense whatsoever.

How am I to interpret this "Usually", if i do not deduce that it refers to the subjectivity of "when does an effect trump another?".

Based on what, am I to figure out when this "Usually" happens...if i do not compare the effects, so as to conclude on what trumps what?

It even goes so far as to say that you can't, even if the spell produces a different effect each time.

Please, point me out the phrase where this is written.

The example they give isn't specific for Resist Energy spells, and implies a reasoning that makes sense for Polymorph and not for Resist Energy, but they can't always make examples out of the exact spell issues we're interested in at the moment.

Exactly. They can't always make examples out of every case. This is why the included this "Usually", so that gamers employ reason and logic so as to figure out what trumps what.

Again, if you disagree, I'm eagerly awaiting for your interpretation of this "Usually", for I fail to see any other than the one I explained above.

 

[Greenfield]

Not going to go into a long winded rebuttal.

First you acknowledge the circular nature of your argument, but you seem to be pleased with it. Again, not trying to be rude, but it seems like at least one of us doesn't understand that circular reasoning is a logical fallacy (and I don't think it's me).

Regarding Resist and Protection spells

Resist Energy
Abjuration
Level: Clr 2, Drd 2, Fire 3, Pal 2, Rgr 1, Sor/Wiz 2
Components: V, S, DF
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Touch
Target: Creature touched
Duration: 10 min./level
Saving Throw: Fortitude negates (harmless)
Spell Resistance: Yes (harmless)
This abjuration grants a creature limited protection from damage of whichever one of five energy types you select: acid, cold, electricity, fire, or sonic. The subject gains energy resistance 10 against the energy type chosen, meaning that each time the creature is subjected to such damage (whether from a natural or magical source), that damage is reduced by 10 points before being applied to the creature’s hit points. The value of the energy resistance granted increases to 20 points at 7th level and to a maximum of 30 points at 11th level. The spell protects the recipient’s equipment as well.
Resist energy absorbs only damage. The subject could still suffer unfortunate side effects.
Note: Resist energy overlaps (and does not stack with) protection from energy. If a character is warded by protection from energy and resist energy, the protection spell absorbs damage until its power is exhausted.

So yes, the spells explicitly say they can't stack, and it has nothing to do with "same source".

Regarding False Life: You're right, mine was a bad example.

Regarding Comprehend Languages: I see no reason to believe you could stack this spell with itself. Many play that you can understand *any* language, and that multiple castings aren't needed, but that's beside the point. Your claim that you could use this spell multiple times to produce different effects, and have them all work at once, is as unsupported as the claim about multiple Resist Energy spells.

It's just you saying it. Bringing up more examples of your word supported by your word still doesn't make it anything more than your word. Sorry.

Summarizing much of the rest of your argument, you seem to be of the idea that multiple effects must "trump" each other in order to be banned. The SRD uses that in an example, but the rule itself says you can't gain from having the same spell on you multiple times, period.

Ignore the example, look at the rule. It's really really clear.

One thing I've learned though is that for many gamers, terms like "usually" or "almost always" translate as "never". They always presume that they'll be the exception. That's pretty much what you're doing here. It's a willfully bad reading of the rules to try to make them say what you want.

 

[Jimlock]

Not going to go into a long winded rebuttal.

First you acknowledge the circular nature of your argument, but you seem to be pleased with it. Again, not trying to be rude, but it seems like at least one of us doesn't understand that circular reasoning is a logical fallacy (and I don't think it's me).

Greenfield, I took the time to answer to your post almost word by word.

Then you come and answer with a generic post about some "logical fallacy"...

Fine... If you don't want to answer to what i have to say it's fine...

no one forces you to...

but don't expect to win an argument that way.

I took the paragraph/rule : "Same Effect with Differing Results", and attempted to decode it,

so as to figure out what this "Usually" means...

...for there is a reason they added this word. Otherwise they would have skipped it.

So until you provide me with ANOTHER translation of that "Usually",

you do not have an argument. (I don't want to sound rude either, ...nor an a-ss, but that's how it is).


Now as far as the:

SRD:
Note: Resist energy overlaps (and does not stack with) protection from energy. If a character is warded by protection from energy and resist energy, the protection spell absorbs damage until its power is exhausted.

...I think you did not give my first post in this thread the appropriate attention.

The above is a 2003 rule.

Then in 2007, WotC published Rules Compendium. In page 5 of the book they say:

It updates and elucidates the rules, as well as expanding on them in ways that make it more fun and easier to play. When a preexisting core book or supplement differs with the rules herein, Rules Compendium is meant to take precedence. If you have a question on how to play D&D at the table, this book is meant to answer that question.

and then...
Rules Compendium (p48):

Multiple sources of resistance to a certain energy type don’t stack with each other. Only the highest value applies to any given attack.

This is a rule which clarifies what happens with all sources, not just the two spells, and also clarifies what happens with same/different energy types. So:

Multiple sources of resistance to a certain energy type don’t stack with each other
=
Multiple sources of resistance to a different type "work" with each other.

Regarding Comprehend Languages: I see no reason to believe you could stack this spell with itself. Many play that you can understand *any* language, and that multiple castings aren't needed, but that's beside the point. Your claim that you could use this spell multiple times to produce different effects, and have them all work at once, is as unsupported as the claim about multiple Resist Energy spells.

What is the meaning of "Usually" in the paragraph?

It's just you saying it. Bringing up more examples of your word supported by your word still doesn't make it anything more than your word. Sorry.

What is the meaning of "Usually" in the paragraph?

Summarizing much of the rest of your argument, you seem to be of the idea that multiple effects must "trump" each other in order to be banned. The SRD uses that in an example, but the rule itself says you can't gain from having the same spell on you multiple times, period.

What is the meaning of "Usually" in the paragraph?

Ignore the example, look at the rule. It's really really clear.

What is the meaning of "Usually" in the paragraph?

One thing I've learned though is that for many gamers, terms like "usually" or "almost always" translate as "never". They always presume that they'll be the exception. That's pretty much what you're doing here. It's a willfully bad reading of the rules to try to make them say what you want.

Did I translate it as never? No

What is the meaning of "Usually" in the paragraph?

 

[Greenfield]

Regarding multiple source for the same resistance...

The Rules Compendium re-enforces what the spells themselves say: They don't stack. It doesn't say, or even imply, anything about using the same spell for different elements. Or, to say it your way:

Multiple sources of resistance to a certain energy type don’t stack with each other =/= Multiple sources of resistance to a different type "work" with each other.

You're simply trying to read something in there that isn't there. It's a leap, unsupported by the rules, and which in fact runs contrary to the rules. Benefits from multiple castings of the same spell don't accumulate, even if the effect is different.

Now, what does "usually" mean? "Most often, but not always".

Which, as I said, a certain type of gamer reads as "Never", or "Always, except when I don't want it to", or "Applies to everybody but me".

I'm not trying to be mean or rude here, and I'm sorry if it comes off that way. Your game group can interpret or house rule this any way you want, but your stance here isn't supported by RAW.

 

[Jimlock]

Now, what does "usually" mean? "Most often, but not always".

Thank you for answering... even though you answered half the question.




Now, as far as the second part of the question is concerned:



.....Now that we understand that this happens "more often, but not always"...

How are we to decide WHEN that happens?

How are we to decide WHEN the last spell in the series trumps the others, as far as spells that produce

varying effects are concerned?

Based on WHAT do we get to make that decision?

Does RAW provide an answer to that question?

 

[kitcik]

So are you saying you cannot efectively wear a ring of fire resistance and a ring of cold resistance because they don't stack? This seems counterintuitive to me and is not how I read RAW...

 

[Greenfield]

Kitcik, I asked that question early on in the thread, and I don't think I ever got an answer.

My answer would be: I don't know. Items are based on spells, but aren't the spells, and often do things the spells don't. I wouldn't allow the spell and the ring to stack on the same element, but that comes under the rule that Jimlock provided from Rules Compendium.

As an example of items that don't work like the spells: You can stack Shield with Mage Armor, but not with Bracers of Armor, even though the Bracers are based on the same spell. And even though a Ring of Protection is based on the Protection from Evil/Good spell, and gives the same type of bonus, it doesn't ward summoned or enchanted creatures.

Jimlock, are you asking me to list every exception to "usually" in that rule?

There are some spells and spell effects that include specific exceptions to normal rules, or include phrasing that clarifies how some rules work. So rather than try to find and list all such spells and spell like effects, I'll just point out that such exceptions can exist and call it a day.

I know, for example, that there are some items that grant multiple energy resistances, though they tend to be rare and expensive. They'd be outside of that "usually".

Shield of the Sun, for example, provides an energy resistance 10 against all energy types.