Musing of an Epic Virgin
- Thread starter Jack99
- Start date
Jack99, thanks for the update!
I've really been enjoying your play-by-play at epic levels. Again, I'm running a paragon campaign, so it's neat to see where the characters could go (power and adventure-wise).
The problem I'm having is that I'm running my campaign in Eberron. This is GREAT for paragon-level stories and I have no shortage of ideas for the moment (in fact, I have TOO many threats/plots/villains).
However, looking ahead, I'm having a hard time visualizing what an Eberron campaign will look like at epic levels. There are a host of epic level monsters and villains that WotC has produced... but they are not necessarily tailored to Eberron. I'm not sure how to prevent the things that FEEL Eberron (dragonmarked houses, 5 kingdoms, lightning rails, etc) from becoming just a backdrop while the players kill high level demons, elementals, and titans.
But your thread at least helps to show what the players can do and the cool things they can fight. I just need to create an Eberron story behind it all.
Just musing here... not asking for advice
I've really been enjoying your play-by-play at epic levels. Again, I'm running a paragon campaign, so it's neat to see where the characters could go (power and adventure-wise).
The problem I'm having is that I'm running my campaign in Eberron. This is GREAT for paragon-level stories and I have no shortage of ideas for the moment (in fact, I have TOO many threats/plots/villains).
However, looking ahead, I'm having a hard time visualizing what an Eberron campaign will look like at epic levels. There are a host of epic level monsters and villains that WotC has produced... but they are not necessarily tailored to Eberron. I'm not sure how to prevent the things that FEEL Eberron (dragonmarked houses, 5 kingdoms, lightning rails, etc) from becoming just a backdrop while the players kill high level demons, elementals, and titans.
But your thread at least helps to show what the players can do and the cool things they can fight. I just need to create an Eberron story behind it all.
Just musing here... not asking for advice
Jack99
Adventurer
Most welcome, glad you are enjoying it.
The problem I'm having is that I'm running my campaign in Eberron. This is GREAT for paragon-level stories and I have no shortage of ideas for the moment (in fact, I have TOO many threats/plots/villains).
However, looking ahead, I'm having a hard time visualizing what an Eberron campaign will look like at epic levels. There are a host of epic level monsters and villains that WotC has produced... but they are not necessarily tailored to Eberron. I'm not sure how to prevent the things that FEEL Eberron (dragonmarked houses, 5 kingdoms, lightning rails, etc) from becoming just a backdrop while the players kill high level demons, elementals, and titans.
But your thread at least helps to show what the players can do and the cool things they can fight. I just need to create an Eberron story behind it all.
Just musing here... not asking for advice
Since you are not asking for advice, I won't be giving any. Not that I would ever presume to be able to when it comes to Eberron. I like the setting (as in when I read the Campaign Guide), but it never caught enough interest for me to explore more than just that, so my knowledge is fairly limited when it comes to that setting.
What I can say is that epic tier seems to be radically different from the two last tiers, when it comes to stories and plots. It's really more than a notch up, and therefore, I think that most epic campaigns will naturally drift off to the planes and such, leaving not only the natural world behind, but also many of the plots of the world. Many setting-specific things are just too low-key to be used at the epic tier.
My point? Well mostly that the challenge you seem face is one that many settings will have. Maybe some less than others, but I am guessing there is a very limited amount of epic tier setting specific challenges around. Even in settings like FR.
Hawke
Explorer
I too enjoy your comments.
Yes... I think I've resolved after reading a lot about epic play two different things 1) It sounds very interesting! and 2) I'm not necessarily sure it will fit my campaign as easily. As it stands I have stuff planned through ~22, but I'm worried I haven't laid enough "epic plot seeds" after a few paragon levels that it will still feel like the same campaign. Looking at Scales of War Epic I'm seeing a lot more stuff that is out of place in my world.
On that sort of note... I wonder how Epic Dark Sun will play out. It seems like planar activity is almost a must from most of the campaigns I've read from that tier. Guess we'll see.
Overall, I think I agree with your 22-33 and the minion damage rules - I've pretty much done what you have to minions. I also have been of the thought since reaching paragon to give minions 2 hits before death, but maybe allowing encounters to count as both those hits if they're single-target. I imagine that template up to 3 for epic makes sense, too.
Yes... I think I've resolved after reading a lot about epic play two different things 1) It sounds very interesting! and 2) I'm not necessarily sure it will fit my campaign as easily. As it stands I have stuff planned through ~22, but I'm worried I haven't laid enough "epic plot seeds" after a few paragon levels that it will still feel like the same campaign. Looking at Scales of War Epic I'm seeing a lot more stuff that is out of place in my world.
On that sort of note... I wonder how Epic Dark Sun will play out. It seems like planar activity is almost a must from most of the campaigns I've read from that tier. Guess we'll see.
Overall, I think I agree with your 22-33 and the minion damage rules - I've pretty much done what you have to minions. I also have been of the thought since reaching paragon to give minions 2 hits before death, but maybe allowing encounters to count as both those hits if they're single-target. I imagine that template up to 3 for epic makes sense, too.
Jack99
Adventurer
Yes, epic level play is definitely a different beast that one needs to tackle a new way, if one is not accustomed to running that sort of games.
As noted elsewhere, this is my first stab at this sort of campaign, and I am still not convinced that I am up to it. The plots and missions are completely on another scale than I am used to, and I have told my players about my reservations. But I am also determined to see how far I can take things.
The biggest difference is the change of pace. I do not like big dungeons, I prefer small dungeons, consisting of around 4 actual encounters. It is however easy to notice that the difficulty (relative to the level of players) of said encounters will need to be upped if the appropriate level of challenge is to be kept. Characters at this level have so many powers and tricks that have to be depleted before you can seriously pressure them, unless you make one encounter after the other that borders on TPK. I mean, our guest barbarian has 17 surges and heals 52 hit points per surge. The cleric adds around 30-40 hit points on top of that, and each healing word heals two characters now. So thats over 200 hit points per combat, not including surges, just from healing words. Not to mention all the other healing powers he has.
I just see very few ways around that enormous amount of healing. Either the monsters need to do a lot of damage (and I do mean a lot) or the cleric has to be shut down early in the combat. Easier said than done, and not really fair to the poor elf if all monsters go for him every single time. I mean, I do it as much as the next rat bastard DM, but IMO, its no fun if all combats become a race to kill the monsters before they kill the cleric. I used to be able to separate him (range wise) from certain party members, and being able to apply pressure that way, but with healing word being close burst 15, I just don't see that happening a lot anymore.
Maybe I just need to put more thought into the encounters, we will see.
EDIT: And it is just going to get worse. Next level (which they will get on tuesday) will give the cleric the ability to rez people in combat. Yikes...
Yep, you got my point exactly. Most of the epic adventures I've read about have the players traveling all over Creation, whether it be the depths of the Shadowfell, the Astral Sea, or into the Abyss. I'm all for this!!! Yet, when it comes to a specific campaign setting (like Eberron), it seems like all that planar traveling put the actual "world" into a secondary role.
Eberron has a great Epic story... there are Demonic Overlords from the beginning of creation that have been imprissoned for hundreds of thousands of years, and have been plotting to escape. Basically, a DM can use any of the epic level threats from any sourcebook to stand in for these Overlords (Tiamat, Baphomet, etc).
So finding a big bad evil guy is not hard... but filling the adventures required to GET to them is tough. The only place where epic level monsters and minions should be roaming around IS in other planes. In order for the normal world to function, you can't have epic level demons, devils, undead, titans just roaming the countryside!
I'm not saying there isn't an answer. I just haven't been able to visualize the epic levels as easily as I have heroic and paragon. I'm sure it will involve players making short sojourns into the planes, while still maintaining their base (and concerns) on the normal world.
I thin for campaign settings like Eberron or the Realms... the answer might lie in changing the world is some dramatic way for the epic tier. Maybe some world-shatter event has created some planar invasion, so the big baddies ARE running wild on the world, directly threatening well known locals and NPCs.
I think in Eberron, there are plenty of regions that suit epic play:
* The Demon Wastes: any fiends you want, especially rakshasas
* Khyber: Daelkyr, with their mind flayer, beholder, and other aberrant minions, plus every other nasty thing you can think of in the Underdark
* Xen'drik: Titans, giants
* Argonessen: Dragons
Traveling in all these regions is hazardous, both due to the monsters and the challenges of the terrain itself. And traveling to these regions, particularly Xen'drik and Argonessen, presents yet another challenge, even for epic characters.
But yes, plane-hopping definitely seems to be the norm for epic-tier play.
* The Demon Wastes: any fiends you want, especially rakshasas
* Khyber: Daelkyr, with their mind flayer, beholder, and other aberrant minions, plus every other nasty thing you can think of in the Underdark
* Xen'drik: Titans, giants
* Argonessen: Dragons
Traveling in all these regions is hazardous, both due to the monsters and the challenges of the terrain itself. And traveling to these regions, particularly Xen'drik and Argonessen, presents yet another challenge, even for epic characters.
But yes, plane-hopping definitely seems to be the norm for epic-tier play.
Jack99
Adventurer
We started right where we left off, with the final battle against King Balor, his pet quickling and nymph lover. What the players didn't know was that there was a 4th enemy to be fought, a balor. With a last minute cancellation by one of the players, it was suddenly a n+5 encounter. On top of having just gone through 6 encounters without an extended rest. I considered briefly making it easier, but ultimately just figured to test how far my players could go.
As it turns out, not much more. We got a very long battle (for once, I didn't enforce the 20 sec rule, simply because they were under so much pressure), nay, we got a really long battle, almost 3 hours. Not that anyone felt it as grindy. No one was sure until the second last round of how the battle would end. Everyone was bloodied, long out of healing and cool powers when the fight ended. The fighter was down no less than 6 times, and ran out of surges about halfway through the combat. He was also stunned, immobilized or otherwise impaired to a degree that robbed him of any attacks about 2/3rds of the combat. Which was not very funny for him. I had tried to tone down the number of such conditions for a good while, but when I finally fielded monsters with such powers again, it immediately became a problem again. I am definitely going to have to watch the number of monsters that have such powers.
After the fight, they returned to the church of Kord in Drahar, to find out what the place they need to complete the ritual was. The place is the Chamber of Rituals, the private ritual chamber of the Lord of the City of Brass.
[sblock=The Ritual]
Hidden Memories
Through a significant offering, you and your friends are able to enter the memories, possibly even those forgotten, of the entity which lies in front of you.
Level: 22
Category: Divination
Time: 8 hours
Duration: Special
Component Cost: 100,000 gp
Market Price: Unique
Key Skill: Arcana
With the help of ancient arcane symbols and an enormous amount of residuum, you channel the magical weave into the subject and follow it (along with up to 8 others) into the memories of the subject. In there, you can navigate from memory to memory, even finding ancient memories that the subject had forgotten.
Let it be known that such intrusion is very dangerous, and that the subject's subconsciousness, even if completely willing, will fight you every step of the way of your journey through his memories. The stronger the subject, the stronger the subconsciousness.
While you are inside the mind of the subject, your body will stay outside, utterly helpless. You will not be aware of what happens to your body while inside the memories of the subject, unless the body is killed, in which case your mental projection will die immediately. Also be aware that only the ritual caster can end the ritual, not those he brings with him.
Should your mental projection be killed by the subconsciousness of the subject, your body will still be alive, but your brain will cease to function. In a matter of hours, your body will die as well, unless raised from the dead. And even that is tricky at best, there has been several cases where Raise Dead has not been sufficient.
After you enter the mind of the subject, you will have to make an arcana check once every 12 hours to maintain the mental projection. Failure to make the check will stop the ritual and expulse everyone from the memories of the target.
The DC to enter the mind of a subject is: Subjects level
The DC to maintain is: Subjects level +1/12 hours passed.
This ritual can be used to enter anyones mind, even that of a god. In the case of divinity and other entities as powerful, one must have 3 things to power the ritual. 1 component (Heart of Grazz't), 1 item (Evil Eye) and 1 magical focus point (unknown so far). The component is consumed in the casting and the item and the magical focus point will be drained for 1 year and 1 day. Should you wish to recast the ritual, a new component must be gathered while waiting for the item and focus point to recharge.
[/sblock]
As they got back, Gnoguh found that that no less than 3 emissaries were waiting for his arrival. One emissary of a King, one of a merchant prince, one of a queen. As it turns out, the first two (the king and the merchant prince) want Gnoguh to marry their daughter and the queen wants Gnoguh to marry herself. He decided to talk things over with the rest of the party before he went out to view the possible prospects.
Meanwhile, Torn also got word that several people wanted to retain his services. He never found out who they were, because we had a big break leveling (ding 22), which took longer than usual. Maybe because I forgot to warn the players a couple of days in advance as I usually do. Ah well, the guy playing the barbarian did need some help changing some things with the character I made for him. I assume this means he plans on coming back on a regular basis. Sounds like I got myself a new player. Or rather an old player back - he played 2e with us for many years.
Anyway, the whole marriage galore and the sudden demand in Torn's services as a sage is of course an attempt to make the players feel more epic. When dragons and exarches come knocking on Torn's door to seek his advice and knowledge, and when kings battle for the right to wed their daughter to Gnoguh, they are hopefully going to feel pretty damn important. They will also (hopefully) realize that their actions (or lack thereof) at this level have pretty big consequences. You know, with great power comes great responsibility and all that jazz. It's corny, but true!. I am still considering what exactly will happen, but I think that at least one of those that Gnoguh does not choose will suffer greatly. Maybe the country will be invaded or something. I am still brainstorming with myself on that.
I am also brainstorming a lot on their City of Brass adventure. I have the box set, but will probably run it as a hybrid between what little info we have in 4e, and the 3.x box set from NG. Still torn on what type of adventure City of Brass will be. Faction grinding or back alley backstabbing?
As it turns out, not much more. We got a very long battle (for once, I didn't enforce the 20 sec rule, simply because they were under so much pressure), nay, we got a really long battle, almost 3 hours. Not that anyone felt it as grindy. No one was sure until the second last round of how the battle would end. Everyone was bloodied, long out of healing and cool powers when the fight ended. The fighter was down no less than 6 times, and ran out of surges about halfway through the combat. He was also stunned, immobilized or otherwise impaired to a degree that robbed him of any attacks about 2/3rds of the combat. Which was not very funny for him. I had tried to tone down the number of such conditions for a good while, but when I finally fielded monsters with such powers again, it immediately became a problem again. I am definitely going to have to watch the number of monsters that have such powers.
After the fight, they returned to the church of Kord in Drahar, to find out what the place they need to complete the ritual was. The place is the Chamber of Rituals, the private ritual chamber of the Lord of the City of Brass.
[sblock=The Ritual]
Hidden Memories
Through a significant offering, you and your friends are able to enter the memories, possibly even those forgotten, of the entity which lies in front of you.
Level: 22
Category: Divination
Time: 8 hours
Duration: Special
Component Cost: 100,000 gp
Market Price: Unique
Key Skill: Arcana
With the help of ancient arcane symbols and an enormous amount of residuum, you channel the magical weave into the subject and follow it (along with up to 8 others) into the memories of the subject. In there, you can navigate from memory to memory, even finding ancient memories that the subject had forgotten.
Let it be known that such intrusion is very dangerous, and that the subject's subconsciousness, even if completely willing, will fight you every step of the way of your journey through his memories. The stronger the subject, the stronger the subconsciousness.
While you are inside the mind of the subject, your body will stay outside, utterly helpless. You will not be aware of what happens to your body while inside the memories of the subject, unless the body is killed, in which case your mental projection will die immediately. Also be aware that only the ritual caster can end the ritual, not those he brings with him.
Should your mental projection be killed by the subconsciousness of the subject, your body will still be alive, but your brain will cease to function. In a matter of hours, your body will die as well, unless raised from the dead. And even that is tricky at best, there has been several cases where Raise Dead has not been sufficient.
After you enter the mind of the subject, you will have to make an arcana check once every 12 hours to maintain the mental projection. Failure to make the check will stop the ritual and expulse everyone from the memories of the target.
The DC to enter the mind of a subject is: Subjects level
The DC to maintain is: Subjects level +1/12 hours passed.
This ritual can be used to enter anyones mind, even that of a god. In the case of divinity and other entities as powerful, one must have 3 things to power the ritual. 1 component (Heart of Grazz't), 1 item (Evil Eye) and 1 magical focus point (unknown so far). The component is consumed in the casting and the item and the magical focus point will be drained for 1 year and 1 day. Should you wish to recast the ritual, a new component must be gathered while waiting for the item and focus point to recharge.
[/sblock]
As they got back, Gnoguh found that that no less than 3 emissaries were waiting for his arrival. One emissary of a King, one of a merchant prince, one of a queen. As it turns out, the first two (the king and the merchant prince) want Gnoguh to marry their daughter and the queen wants Gnoguh to marry herself. He decided to talk things over with the rest of the party before he went out to view the possible prospects.
Meanwhile, Torn also got word that several people wanted to retain his services. He never found out who they were, because we had a big break leveling (ding 22), which took longer than usual. Maybe because I forgot to warn the players a couple of days in advance as I usually do. Ah well, the guy playing the barbarian did need some help changing some things with the character I made for him. I assume this means he plans on coming back on a regular basis. Sounds like I got myself a new player. Or rather an old player back - he played 2e with us for many years.
Anyway, the whole marriage galore and the sudden demand in Torn's services as a sage is of course an attempt to make the players feel more epic. When dragons and exarches come knocking on Torn's door to seek his advice and knowledge, and when kings battle for the right to wed their daughter to Gnoguh, they are hopefully going to feel pretty damn important. They will also (hopefully) realize that their actions (or lack thereof) at this level have pretty big consequences. You know, with great power comes great responsibility and all that jazz. It's corny, but true!. I am still considering what exactly will happen, but I think that at least one of those that Gnoguh does not choose will suffer greatly. Maybe the country will be invaded or something. I am still brainstorming with myself on that.
I am also brainstorming a lot on their City of Brass adventure. I have the box set, but will probably run it as a hybrid between what little info we have in 4e, and the 3.x box set from NG. Still torn on what type of adventure City of Brass will be. Faction grinding or back alley backstabbing?
functionciccio
First Post
Great thread, Jack99!
My group is far from Epic Levels right now, but I'm really interested anyhow.
Wow.
I mean... this is just... insane.
How it can be done? Is that the norm at those levels?
My group is far from Epic Levels right now, but I'm really interested anyhow.
Wow.
I mean... this is just... insane.
How it can be done? Is that the norm at those levels?
functionciccio
First Post
Jack99, can you post the King's stats?
(unless, of course, this monster comes from a published book)
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