Musings on a A Song of Ice and Fire [SPOILERS]...

[Eosin the Red]

Him and Jaqen H'garr were my two favorites, although after rereading I'm starting to believe that they are one and the same. Jaqen's background is purposefully vague. Nothing is specific save that to get in jail he did "something bad that no one knows about but was bad."

While I like the idea and have read it elsewhere, the Syrio/Jaqen theroy just does not seem to hold water for me. There are too many issues about the strange assassain.

1) Why was he in jail in Kingspoint? It is pretty obvious that it could not have held him, nor could Yorean.

2) Who was he sent to kill? (most likely suspect is Balon Greyjoy IMO)

3) There is some small nagging little piece of information that eludes my brain about the Braavosi and the various assassain groups that would make it unlikely that the Jaqen would pose as a water dancer....I will look on some of the sites and see what I can find about it.

4) When did his magic return?

 

[Nightfall]

Now, see, strangely, I got a wholey different vibe from Daenerys than most people... I didn't see her as kind-hearted at all.

Course not. But she is compassionate to her people. She cares for them, even as she rules them.

Oh yeah regarding Ceseri, she may be human, but then so is Charley Manson. Don't see me shedding tears for him.

 

[DMScott]

But one comment to Celtavian: Cersei will definately be more of a sympatheic character in her own POV. The mindless-masses ALWAYS are much easier on someone when they can see it from their eyes. Look at Jaime.

I think it's more that Martin works to make the character more sympathetic so people want to read those chapters. Jaime's dialogue and actions are actually different from the time he becomes a POV character on - he's portrayed as more intelligent and less capricious than his actions earlier would suggest.

Despite that, I'd still like to see Jaime die in some slow and painful manner. I don't care how much time is spent on him begging for the reader's pity. He's a great counterexample to the "characters that screw up, die" line of thought - from the king slaying through the attempt to murder Bran and onwards, Jaime has been a physically gifted, morally bankrupt, mentally weak putz. He's screwed up far more than Eddard and Robb combined. His continued existence demonstrates to me that Martin is showing that people rarely get what they deserve, which is true if not very encouraging.

 

[ConnorSB]

While I like the idea and have read it elsewhere, the Syrio/Jaqen theroy just does not seem to hold water for me. There are too many issues about the strange assassain.

1) Why was he in jail in Kingspoint? It is pretty obvious that it could not have held him, nor could Yorean.

2) Who was he sent to kill? (most likely suspect is Balon Greyjoy IMO)

3) There is some small nagging little piece of information that eludes my brain about the Braavosi and the various assassain groups that would make it unlikely that the Jaqen would pose as a water dancer....I will look on some of the sites and see what I can find about it.

4) When did his magic return?

Hmm... I've been musing on this for a while, and I've come up with a few thoughts. Some support the idea, and some don't.

First, why exactly did Yoren take Arya in the first place? Besides her being, well, a Stark.

Second, If Syrio basically changed his face and name while in the black cells (assuming he relented from the guards and they didn't outright kill him, how did he know that Arya was traveling with Yoren?

Third, if Syrio is Jaqen, did a "real" Jaqen ever exist?

Here's this for a theory:

Syrio is a Faceless Man (Are these different than the Sorrowful Men? 'Cause wasn't it a sorroful man that Robert sent against Danys?). He is in town on a mission, whether it be to kill or to recruit. To recruit, he decides the best way to find good canidates is to teach them young- hence posing (possibly legitimatly) as a simple weapons teacher/water dancer in from Bravvos. So he starts teaching Arya and can see her great potential-maybe she is one of the very few people born to kill.

He trains her, protects her when the Lannisters take over, etc. After she runs away, he wins the battle (but doesnt kill his opponenent, as he was, you know, still around later). But he follows her and see's Yoren grab her and take her with him. So he tracks them. When he learns that she is going to go to the wall, he, secretly, follows them some more, finds a particularly silent prisoner who obviously doesn't have a background (people say he did something dark, but no one knows what). So he kills the origional Jaqen and takes his place, thus being able to keep tabs on his newest recruit.

And then he gives her the coin, as she has the potential. Basically he doesn't want to force her to do anything, so instead he gives her the coin and lets her decide to go to Bravvos on her own.

Oh, and as to when his magic returns, perhaps it comes back with everyone elses, when the dragons are born. The mages of the alchemist guild thing, the one that made the wildfire for Tyrion, he does note (and this is about 2 chapters after Jaqen does his face-thing), that the magic seems to have returned, as they have made far more Wildfire than they used to be able to...

 

[Olgar Shiverstone]

Minor hijack -- has anyone seen SoI&F in an audio format? My wife would probably enjoy them, but she's such a slow and inconsistent reader she's too intimidated by the length of the books. She plows through books on tape/CD, though.

 

[Eosin the Red]

Oh, and as to when his magic returns, perhaps it comes back with everyone elses, when the dragons are born. The mages of the alchemist guild thing, the one that made the wildfire for Tyrion, he does note (and this is about 2 chapters after Jaqen does his face-thing), that the magic seems to have returned, as they have made far more Wildfire than they used to be able to...

A little reflection...when did Syrio "change" forms? That would require magic and I don't think it was very powerful at that point. I don't think the dragons were reborn when we met Jaqen....of course since the two stories are 100% divorced from each other I assume that it is possible there was some time differences.


My theroy....Arya will at some point be forced to choose between Syrio (who survived) and the Waterdancers (good) or Jaqen and the Faceless Assassains (evil). These are the two destinies laid out before her, give into hate and fear and turn into what you despise or walk away from that and let the hate, fear and loss flow through you like water; affecting you and mingling with you but not directing you, not consuming you. Waterdancing and Syrio are her only hope for "redemption."

Snow faces a similar delema in his future; abandoned his oaths and the nightwatch and lead "men" to victory (possibly with Dany) or hold to his oaths and be honurable just like his Ned (I was gonna say his father ).

The Sorrowful men are the ones who tried to get Dany. Faceless men are a different magic assassain sect....I loose track of the wierd magic stuff on the eastern continent....and I don't think we have enough to piece allot of this stuff together. The Red Witch is from Bravoos (iirc) and could very well be mixed in with the assassains (or choosing their targets).

Fire and Ice....which is the bad guy.....are both bad....and why are the Seven so powerless while the other "gods" gain strength in leaps and bounds. Where are the older gods of the Wier woods.....The real battle is shaping up and "divine" powers have chosen to fight this battle out on Westeros while Westeros rips itself apart in a succession crisis. As much as I want book four....I really want book five when some of this stuff starts really coming into play.

Why do the old gods of the Wier Woods want the Starks alive so much? The only action seen by the Old Ones is the omen of the Stag and the Dire Wolves and the protection of the Dire Wolves for the children. The problem with that protection is that the kids (barring Snow) did not know how to listen to thier Guardians. Even Jon does not understand that Ghost is the Old Ones trying to save him....surley as the Dragons are to save Dany. Magic started escalating in book one......the Dragons came but so did the Dire Wolves......?? Losts of really cool questions but no real answers.

 

[Nightfall]

I'd like to state while I did want to torture Jaime, I'll just be content with him dying of a grevious wound in battle. But Cerisi has nothing redeemable about her. I read her POV. There's still nothing I find remotely human about her. Her lack of empathy is as much as sign of true sociapathology as well as her own need to have sex with herself or Jaime.

 

[ShadowX]

I find 2 two problems stick out to me when analyzing the books.

1) I find none of the characters sympathetic, most of them I find obnoxious and imbecilic. I liked Ned, but he is dead. Tyrion is now the only character I adore and empathize with. Unlikable characters are not conducive to a story.

2) Books 2 and 3 appear stretched and artificially elongated. Martin's original idea for a trilogy should have been conserved. Of course, maybe this was because I thought it was a trilogy until I realized during the 3rd book that this would not conclude the saga.

 

[Kahuna Burger]

Him and Jaqen H'garr were my two favorites, although after rereading I'm starting to believe that they are one and the same. Jaqen's background is purposefully vague. Nothing is specific save that to get in jail he did "something bad that no one knows about but was bad."

And in the Soup chapter, when he basically whipes his face off and becomes totally different looking... could not he be Syrio? And Arya is going east, towards the Seven Cities... towards Bravos...

I'm glad I'm not the only one who considered this as a serious possibility... didn't reread, but it was something that came to me after I was done, around the same time as "What the hell is up with those moronic horn codes? Who invented those?" I won't be continuing the books, but luckily my husband will and can give me the spoilers and answers to any questions I still have.

Kahuna Burger

 

[Tsyr]

ShadowX, don't ya like Jon?