My theory on this is that levels beyond 10 went from pretty much unplayable in 1e/2e to merely tedius to DM and sometimes complicated to play (especially for prepared-spell casters) in 3.x, so mid to high-level play became a lot more common in the 3.x era.
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Musings on the "I Win" Button
- Thread starter FireLance
- Start date
My theory on this is that levels beyond 10 went from pretty much unplayable in 1e/2e to merely tedius to DM and sometimes complicated to play (especially for prepared-spell casters) in 3.x, so mid to high-level play became a lot more common in the 3.x era.
Nifft
Penguin Herder
This fits with my experience. We did lots of 1-9 (at most) play in Basic and 1e, but my games had never hit 10+ until 3.0.
"... except Throne of Bhaal", -- N
JRRNeiklot
First Post
I hate having no recourse but to carve every hit point off of something. Save or dies, and no save or dies keep the game interesting.
JRRNeiklot
First Post
Right. A good example of this is the original Ravenloft module. Strahd was on the wandering monster chart and could show up while most of the party was asleep if you chose to rest.
Lanefan
Victoria Rules
Keep in mind also that just because there are "I Win" effects out there doesn't mean they are always going to work.
I've run encounters where what I thought would be a headache for the party was brought to order by one spell. I've also run encounters where something relatively simple became a major problem because all the "I Wins" failed on a lucky string of saving throws by the opposition.
A more random system helps as well; anything that turns "I Win" into "I might win" is a good thing.
Something I'm cooking up for a future adventure is a batch of small critters that the party will probably look at as a speed bump when first met. What they party won't know is that these things are *completely* immune to magic of any kind, even including weapon bonuses etc. Give these little guys some tactics and it'll be interesting to see how the party handle them...
Lanefan
I've run encounters where what I thought would be a headache for the party was brought to order by one spell. I've also run encounters where something relatively simple became a major problem because all the "I Wins" failed on a lucky string of saving throws by the opposition.
A more random system helps as well; anything that turns "I Win" into "I might win" is a good thing.
Something I'm cooking up for a future adventure is a batch of small critters that the party will probably look at as a speed bump when first met. What they party won't know is that these things are *completely* immune to magic of any kind, even including weapon bonuses etc. Give these little guys some tactics and it'll be interesting to see how the party handle them...
Lanefan
Garthanos
Arcadian Knight
Random swingy chance is not that interesting to me. The more SoD or SoS is tied to one class and/or a single die roll the less interesting it gets.
Here is what I think "some folks like to feel sudden shifts in the battle".
4e has a number of ways sudden shifts can occur....If I want more swing I will increase those.
Resources
In 4e Action Points and dailies and any number of things can dramatically shift the battle very few are end games. Give players more action points for instance one per encounter is a battle speeder and encourages some interesting action to boot.
Situational Bonuses.
Note you don't have to describe how powers seem and how they work the same way each use and things are more fun if you don't and some times may be more effective.
My group gives effectiveness bonuses when the description for this use of your power integrates well in a situational fashion with the scene as set by the DM (liberally based on page 42 rules). This is that "creative use" people talk about and this feels like player skill and lets you reward interesting thinking it is not entirely subjective, but requires DM judgement.
Critical Hit Dicy-ness
A sudden whoosh of effectiveness that is unpredictable and unreliable is achieved via the critical hit system sans tossing totally the hit point system. This doesnt feel like player skill but is capable of generating some of that booom effect.
A combination of these factors can give me all the swing I really need... yes I am looking at allowing more action points alah Striker0s latest Hero Point house rules. And I probably emphasize situational benefits more than typical. I am not fond of crit hits but live with it because some players do have that gambler fever even if I dont like it dominating the game.
I have gone the opposite direction attempting to stamp out the vestigal save or die effects left in 4e.. and think they could over shadow other cool methods.
Here is what I think "some folks like to feel sudden shifts in the battle".
4e has a number of ways sudden shifts can occur....If I want more swing I will increase those.
Resources
In 4e Action Points and dailies and any number of things can dramatically shift the battle very few are end games. Give players more action points for instance one per encounter is a battle speeder and encourages some interesting action to boot.
Situational Bonuses.
Note you don't have to describe how powers seem and how they work the same way each use and things are more fun if you don't and some times may be more effective.
My group gives effectiveness bonuses when the description for this use of your power integrates well in a situational fashion with the scene as set by the DM (liberally based on page 42 rules). This is that "creative use" people talk about and this feels like player skill and lets you reward interesting thinking it is not entirely subjective, but requires DM judgement.
Critical Hit Dicy-ness
A sudden whoosh of effectiveness that is unpredictable and unreliable is achieved via the critical hit system sans tossing totally the hit point system. This doesnt feel like player skill but is capable of generating some of that booom effect.
A combination of these factors can give me all the swing I really need... yes I am looking at allowing more action points alah Striker0s latest Hero Point house rules. And I probably emphasize situational benefits more than typical. I am not fond of crit hits but live with it because some players do have that gambler fever even if I dont like it dominating the game.
I have gone the opposite direction attempting to stamp out the vestigal save or die effects left in 4e.. and think they could over shadow other cool methods.
FireLance
Legend
I would argue that sleep is more of a "We win" than an "I win" - the other players get to contribute by making coup de grace critical hit after coup de grace critical hit on the helpless opponent(s).
Raven Crowking
First Post
Another really transparent straw man?
I find three 10 minute battles with actual options with mechanical impact for fighters much, much, much more fun than a single 30 minute one.
At the end of the day, IME, mechanical impact has more effect on a fast fight than it does on a slow fight as well. 3.x, with its focus on the battle grid, for instance, tended (again IME) to make players choose the same options over and over because all other options were suboptimal and the system put monsters and PCs on such a par that suboptimal decisions could result in a TPK. Using a slower attrition model (ala OSRIC and the game it represents) allows for a wider range of choices to be useful (and hence allows for more mechanical variety within any given combat, or set of combats) while a system that allows for non-grid mechanical choices means that the players can try lots of stuff.
During our last RCFG session, the sorcerer's player was strongly considering taking a more martial level when he attained enough XP. It's a good feeling!
I guess to each his own. (shrug)
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Garthanos
Arcadian Knight
Jacks for options for the AD&D fighters runaway or fight... and wizards who at low levels had to hide behind them nine tenths of the time with nothing wizard like to do? Sorry ten minutes of snooze or blind optionless die rolling was direct experience nothing straw about it. I watch the fighters and rogues overshadowed at high levels usually at conventions.
Everybody has different experiences. I saw this happen with AD&D back in the day many many times sometimes in games I played in other times at game conventions sometimes sitting in on others games and so I moved on to other rpgs (HERO / RQ for instance). I almost came back to D&D in 3.0 (I might have liked it but there were signs not enough imbalances were fixed).
Raven Crowking
First Post
Sorry if you thought the game I was referring to was 1e AD&D. As noted in my sig, I play RCFG. I figured that I'd hyped it enough that I didn't have to say that again. My fault.
RC
