Must Try Harder: Spell Levels

[bbjore]

I think it'd be great if they made fewer spells but all of them were scalable based on the level they were prepared at. Fireball starts out as essentially scorching burst when prepared in a level one spot, but melts reality when it's prepared in a 9th lvl spell slot. Why should there be so many different lightning bolt or acid spells, make one and have it scale? I know they'd have to make allowances for higher level spells; wish probably shouldn't be able to be prepared in a lower level slot, but then a first level wish that could manifest a sandwhich and pint of beer would be pretty cool too.

I am also really curious what magic missile would look like as an actual 9th lvl spell. I imagine a hail of missiles that tears holes in the the target or something.

 

[Yora]

Psionic Power Augmentation.

Spells have a basic effect like "5d6 fire damage in 20 ft. burst area". For every additional spell point, you increase damage by 1d6. Or if you use slots, for every higher slot level, you increase damage by 2d6.

Energy Burst
Level: Psion/wilder 3
Saving Throw: Reflex half or Fortitude half; see text
Power Points: 5

Upon manifesting this power, you choose cold, electricity, fire, or sonic. You create an explosion of unstable ectoplasmic energy of the chosen type that deals 5d6 points of damage to every creature or object within the area. The explosion creates almost no pressure. Since this power extends outward from you, you are not affected by the damage.

This power’s subtype is the same as the type of energy you manifest.

Augment
For every additional power point you spend, this power’s damage increases by one die (d6). For each extra two dice of damage, this power’s save DC increases by 1.

Or have the charm spell that can target humanoids when using a 1st level slot, monstrous humanoids and animals when using a 2nd level slot, and magical beasts, fey, elementals, and outsider when using a 3rd level slot.

Charm, Psionic
Level: Telepath 1
Target: One humanoid
Duration: 1 hour/level
Saving Throw: Will negates
Power Points: 1

As the charm person spell, except as noted here.

Augment
You can augment this power in one or more of the following ways.

If you spend 2 additional power points, this power can also affect an animal, fey, giant, magical beast, or monstrous humanoid.
If you spend 4 additional power points, this power can also affect an aberration, dragon, elemental, or outsider in addition to the creature types mentioned above.
If you spend 4 additional power points, this power’s duration increases to one day per level.

In addition, for every 2 additional power points you spend to achieve any of these effects, this power’s save DC increases by 1.

It already exist. Bruce Cordell created it. He's also on the 5th Ed design team.

 

[variant]

I think it'd be great if they made fewer spells but all of them were scalable based on the level they were prepared at. Fireball starts out as essentially scorching burst when prepared in a level one spot, but melts reality when it's prepared in a 9th lvl spell slot. Why should there be so many different lightning bolt or acid spells, make one and have it scale? I know they'd have to make allowances for higher level spells; wish probably shouldn't be able to be prepared in a lower level slot, but then a first level wish that could manifest a sandwhich and pint of beer would be pretty cool too.

I am also really curious what magic missile would look like as an actual 9th lvl spell. I imagine a hail of missiles that tears holes in the the target or something.

I disagree with this. I think only spells' effectiveness should increase with memorizing them at higher levels. I like the variety of spells available and don't want that to turn into some bland generic spell system.

 

[Yora]

But generic is better when you have only a limited number of spells known.

Abd yes, this already includes the assumption that memorizing spells is a system that should be avoided.

 

[The Shadow]

Generic doesn't have to mean dull. It can be done well.

I just don't think a build-your-own-spell system would fit in D&D, really.

 

[Gargoyle]

My problem with all spells as scalable from level 1 on is the Tunnels and Trolls effect. In that game you had a level 1 spells called Take That You Fiend, or TTYF for short. It worked a bit like magic missile or eldritch blast. The problem was that was the only spell some wizards ever cast. TTYF every round, just at different levels. You had a bunch of spells in the book, but you didn't have a bunch of spells being cast.

I feel the same about warlocks and their eldritch blast. It's not that I'm against warlocks or eldritch blasts, it's just that it doesn't feel like a wizard to me.

Having fireball available at 1st level cheapens the spell. I think wizards need something to look forward to. Even if you think that's ok, what about a 1st level meteor swarm? It just doesn't seem right to me and smacks of instant gratification syndrome.

I do think that having a fireball as a 3rd level spells and being able to "pump it up" via meta-magic feats like 3e or with scalable spell levels or with scalable damage depending on caster level like earlier editions feels like D&D, only because spells like fireball have a friendly fire effect...they aren't great all the time. Magic missile is a little more like TTYF particularly being at will, but as long as the damage is lower than prepared spells, it doesn't have the same problem as being the spell that is always cast.

Expanding the list of scalable spells to all spells, or at least all spells that deal damage, is daunting, but probably worth the effort. If you do it for all spells, you can bet that one will rise above the others as being simply better, unless you are careful about the implementation. You have to avoid problems like fireball always being better than meteor swarm, for instance. I think this can be done with damage caps, or by simply paying attention to the math, but thinking through the math to higher levels is something that WotC doesn't have a good track record on, so I agree that they need to add this to the playtest early so we can help.

 

[Prickly]

My problem with all spells as scalable from level 1 on is the Tunnels and Trolls effect. In that game you had a level 1 spells called Take That You Fiend, or TTYF for short. It worked a bit like magic missile or eldritch blast. The problem was that was the only spell some wizards ever cast. TTYF every round, just at different levels. You had a bunch of spells in the book, but you didn't have a bunch of spells being cast.

I feel the same about warlocks and their eldritch blast. It's not that I'm against warlocks or eldritch blasts, it's just that it doesn't feel like a wizard to me.

Having fireball available at 1st level cheapens the spell. I think wizards need something to look forward to. Even if you think that's ok, what about a 1st level meteor swarm? It just doesn't seem right to me and smacks of instant gratification syndrome.

I do think that having a fireball as a 3rd level spells and being able to "pump it up" via meta-magic feats like 3e or with scalable spell levels or with scalable damage depending on caster level like earlier editions feels like D&D, only because spells like fireball have a friendly fire effect...they aren't great all the time. Magic missile is a little more like TTYF particularly being at will, but as long as the damage is lower than prepared spells, it doesn't have the same problem as being the spell that is always cast.

Expanding the list of scalable spells to all spells, or at least all spells that deal damage, is daunting, but probably worth the effort. If you do it for all spells, you can bet that one will rise above the others as being simply better, unless you are careful about the implementation. You have to avoid problems like fireball always being better than meteor swarm, for instance. I think this can be done with damage caps, or by simply paying attention to the math, but thinking through the math to higher levels is something that WotC doesn't have a good track record on, so I agree that they need to add this to the playtest early so we can help.

well I think the spamming is more due to the player but I can agree that some spells should have a minimum spell level or suchlike.

I really hope we never see meta magic again though

Also simple damage spells like magic missle are much better as at-wills

 

[jrowland]

We have yet to see traditions for arcane casters, but I would not be surprised if a "Pyromancer" tradition gives you Extra Dice (ED) to use when casting "fire" spells, with effects like up the damage by 1d6, or add 1 to the DC to save, or increase AoE by 5', etc

Bumping a fireball up by 1d6 *effectively* making it a level higher. By using a resource mechanic, you only get so much "bumping" up (limited quadratic wizard)...by forcing this bump into a tradition, you limit its application further.

I am not sure what they'll do, but I think traditions will change the conversation dramatically.

 

[Chris_Nightwing]

My problem with all spells as scalable from level 1 on is the Tunnels and Trolls effect. In that game you had a level 1 spells called Take That You Fiend, or TTYF for short. It worked a bit like magic missile or eldritch blast. The problem was that was the only spell some wizards ever cast. TTYF every round, just at different levels. You had a bunch of spells in the book, but you didn't have a bunch of spells being cast.

I feel the same about warlocks and their eldritch blast. It's not that I'm against warlocks or eldritch blasts, it's just that it doesn't feel like a wizard to me.

Having fireball available at 1st level cheapens the spell. I think wizards need something to look forward to. Even if you think that's ok, what about a 1st level meteor swarm? It just doesn't seem right to me and smacks of instant gratification syndrome.

I do think that having a fireball as a 3rd level spells and being able to "pump it up" via meta-magic feats like 3e or with scalable spell levels or with scalable damage depending on caster level like earlier editions feels like D&D, only because spells like fireball have a friendly fire effect...they aren't great all the time. Magic missile is a little more like TTYF particularly being at will, but as long as the damage is lower than prepared spells, it doesn't have the same problem as being the spell that is always cast.

Expanding the list of scalable spells to all spells, or at least all spells that deal damage, is daunting, but probably worth the effort. If you do it for all spells, you can bet that one will rise above the others as being simply better, unless you are careful about the implementation. You have to avoid problems like fireball always being better than meteor swarm, for instance. I think this can be done with damage caps, or by simply paying attention to the math, but thinking through the math to higher levels is something that WotC doesn't have a good track record on, so I agree that they need to add this to the playtest early so we can help.

I understand your fear, but I agree with a couple of your points. Some spells shouldn't be scalable through all levels, some shouldn't appear until later levels. For argument's sake, let's say they stick with 9 spell levels (and minor) - imagine lesser spells cover levels 1-3, greater spells cover 4-6 and archspells cover 7-9. You could limit effects like invisibility or flight until greater, effects like plane shift until arch and so on.

Or for more fine grained tuning, only allow a spell to be bettered 5 times (or whatever), so there is a maximum limit to how far you can push a single spell.

One thing I'm afraid of is Wizards keeping all the spell slots they ever gain. You're right that some spells rise above others - nobody will cast a 1st level spell when they have 9th level spells. This is why previous editions scaled the damage so that magic missile was useful later - what they failed to do was also scale the cost!