Must we use Int to modify skill points?

[Brother MacLaren]

There are many types of intelligence, and some do apply to physical activities. There are mental skills involved in sports. For example, to play left field at Fenway, you need to understand angles of caroms at an intuitive level, though you don't necessarily need to be able to do the math on paper.

 

[Scion]

I suppose you could instead, at each level, give points for the bonus in each stat (and allow the character to split up the points gained for the class among any class skills).

Str bonus points could only be used for str based skills, and so on for each.

This would wind up giving people many more skill points in all likelyhood, but that isnt necissarily a bad thing.

It would take some work to balance out properly, but it would definately be intersting.

Of course, doing it this way I wouldnt allow the actual stat bonus to be applied to the skill. As in, if you have a str 14 then you get 2 skill points each level for str based skills, but str based skills do not gain the +2.

Also, allowing 'cross stat' skills. 2 points in one for one point in another.

hmm.. this might work almost well enough to matter.. I must run through some scenarios.. very interesting indeed..

 

[DreamChaser]

I suppose you could instead, at each level, give points for the bonus in each stat (and allow the character to split up the points gained for the class among any class skills).

But this would, quite simply, confuse skill with ability. The ABILITY scores give you a basic modifier to your skills. Those that you can use without training, your ability score determines your innate ABILITY to use it.

Skill, a function of training, and thus of learning, is a function of time spent studying how better to put your innate ability to work (or in some cases, compensate for lack of natural ability).

If you think about it, the class that spends the most time in libraries and in universities (the wizard) gains the most bonus skill points. They don't have much in the way of physical class skills to spend it on. If they spend enough of their time (paying the double cost) they can become moderately skilled. They should have that ability. They spend the most time "learning" of any class and are the best at it (overall).

And of course, the upshot of the skill system is that, most classes (except the sorcerer of course) are mostly likely to want the skills that are based on their prime stat (fighters and Climb, Jump, and Swim, rogues and all the Dex skills, bards and the social skills). So giving skill points by stat removes any and all incentive to diversify a character. Who needs an Intellingence score when having a 20 strength makes you as skilled as you'll ever need to be?

DC

 

[DWARF]

...So giving skill points by stat removes any and all incentive to diversify a character. Who needs an Intellingence score when having a 20 strength makes you as skilled as you'll ever need to be?

DC

Because on the opposite end, I'll want to play a duller, Int 6 Fighter-type, but won't, because his lack of Int will hamper his skill points to stupid levels.

This came about because I wanted to create a dumb-ish, Int 8, Wis 8 Tough hero for d20 Modern. His saving grace is he was good with cars, driving, fixing, etc. But, they only get 3 skill points a level, dropped to 2 by intelligence. So he could do Drive and Repair, but he'd never be able to get the other skills necessary for the advanced classes.

So, I gave him a higher Int because the Int-derived skill system made the character unplayable, as I wanted, any other way. Most stats have 2 functions, affecting some skills, and 'something else'. Problem with Int is that the "something else" cuts all skill points, regardless of what type they are.

 

[DWARF]

If they both train in all three (LEARNING to use their ABILITY better) 10-boy will have something that looks like this at first (2nd, 3rd, 4th) level:
Climb +7 (+7, +8, +9)
Jump +7 (+8, +8, +9)
Swim +6 (+7, +8, +8)

while 12-boy will have
Climb +8 (+9, +10, +11)
Jump +8 (+9, +10, +11)
Swim +8 (+9, +10, +11)

But, 10-boy could choose to be as good as 11-boy in 1 or 2 of the skills but because 12-boy is smarter, he will aways be less limited.

DC

I still fail to see how 12-boy, being slighlty better at crossword puzzles and reading books with big words, can be justified in having such disparate scores at purely physical skills. While mental abilities should differ (represented in the +1 he'd get from int mod) Int shouldn't change the amount of skills you can get. A carpenter learns quite different skills from a scientist, but that doesn't change the fact that they each spend a good amount of time practicing each. I know, I've worked as both.

 

[Someone]

Ah, but you miss that in D&D Int is defined as the ability to learn -whatever- and reason, much the same way dexterity mixes hand-eye coordination with agility (I can imagine a fat and clumsy guy being able to play piano really well) It´s a compromise between playability and realism, and at least I prefer things the way they are.

 

[FireLance]

I look at it from two perspectives. In real life, an athlete with lower intelligence would not have as good a grasp of climbing, jumping and swimming, etc. technique as another athlete (not a bookworm - another athlete) with higher intelligence. The smarter athele thus does better.

From a game perspective, there has to be some drawback for having a low ability score, so that a character who has a low score in an ability score that is normally not useful to him occasionally regrets it. Games tend to be fairer than life in that respect.

Anyway, I'm not familiar with d20 Modern, but in D&D, it's usually possible to get the skill ranks you want by multiclassing into a class that gives more skill points, such as Bard or Rogue (or even Expert, if you're that desperate). It may also be possible to give up feats for additional skill points. I've heard a 1 feat to 4 skill points ratio being used before.

 

[John Q. Mayhem]

There's a feat in the XPH that gives 5 skill points.

 

[Scion]

But this would, quite simply, confuse skill with ability. The ABILITY scores give you a basic modifier to your skills. Those that you can use without training, your ability score determines your innate ABILITY to use it.

Actually, I think it would tie it together even more! It allows your innate ability to shine through.

There is something about intelligence gained in various ways for humans. Some are better at certain things.

This 'could be' represented in the game in the way that I proposed. As you do something you get better at it, and generally people do things that they are inherantly better at.

So, a character is really strong, they gain skill more rapidly in things like running, jumping, etc. Makes perfect sense, and it definately runs right along the proper channels of the game. Possibly even more so than the system as is!

Skill, a function of training, and thus of learning, is a function of time spent studying how better to put your innate ability to work (or in some cases, compensate for lack of natural ability).

Compensating for lack of natural ability would be simulated by what I proposed even better. Since the character would not be naturally good at it they would have to spend resources from elsewhere to build it up.

This keeps on getting better and better.. hmm..

If you think about it, the class that spends the most time in libraries and in universities (the wizard) gains the most bonus skill points. They don't have much in the way of physical class skills to spend it on. If they spend enough of their time (paying the double cost) they can become moderately skilled. They should have that ability. They spend the most time "learning" of any class and are the best at it (overall).

So, with the system I said they would be the ones who would have the most ranks in int based skills. Perfect!

I love this, I really may have to flesh it out fully.

Along with this, the muscle bound brute who has a low int and never read a book in his life, but spends all of his time hiking, climbing, swimming and such would be able to be good at all of those. Whereas in the current system he cannot be.

And of course, the upshot of the skill system is that, most classes (except the sorcerer of course) are mostly likely to want the skills that are based on their prime stat (fighters and Climb, Jump, and Swim, rogues and all the Dex skills, bards and the social skills). So giving skill points by stat removes any and all incentive to diversify a character. Who needs an Intellingence score when having a 20 strength makes you as skilled as you'll ever need to be?

As skilled at muscle bound tasks. Again, perfect!

Being whatever class though would grant a few extra skill points that could be used under whatever the class skills are. They would probably be reduced, but those would effectively be 'freebie points' to spend wherever.

This is great! hmm.. I should start writing something up now.. It works out beautifully in everything it should, and makes it difficult in places where it should.. wow..

 

[Ferret]

Ever see a stupid person tie a knot wrong after being shown hundreds of times? And then someone (clever) picks it up straight away?

The important thing about learning skills is the learn bit.