Must we use Int to modify skill points?

[Scion]

Only nondextrous ones.

I have seen people who cant pay attention to anything science related at all for more than a few second be able to pick up mountain climbing in a single afternoon, and they were the best one at it in the group in a weeks time.

Someone who is very good with their hands will pick up on that knot pretty fast, someone who can barely handle holding a pencil may never get it.

 

[DreamChaser]

Someone who is very good with their hands will pick up on that knot pretty fast, someone who can barely handle holding a pencil may never get it.

Your essentially saying that innate ability = innate ability to learn. This may or may not be true IRL (although as a teacher I have not encountered it much).

Regardless, I suggest you think of Intelligence affecting skill points this way:
Skill points are not a function of anything except how much time you have to learn. You can spend some time practicing climbing or reading about history, or practicing lying to people or learning first aid. The number of skill points your character class gives, basically determines how much time your character spends on skills, and thus how diversified she can be.

Your Intelligence score affects this not because people of lower intelligence can't learn things but because, ON AVERAGE, less intelligent people learn things more slowly.

And remember, the smallest number of skill points a character is ever going to have at 1st level is 4 (8 as a human). Completely moronic fighter can have 4 skills with no problems. Sure the ranks won't be super, but this stands to reason. Or they can be super jumper and be as good at jumping as anyone at 1st level can be.

If you're really bothered by the effect of low Int on skills, don't munchkinize by making everyone super skilled at their favorite stats. Just house rule that you add you Intelligence BONUS to skills at each level. This way, an Int 4 fighter will still have 2 skill points (3 if he's human) but an Int 18 fighter will have 6.

DC

 

[Staffan]

This came about because I wanted to create a dumb-ish, Int 8, Wis 8 Tough hero for d20 Modern. His saving grace is he was good with cars, driving, fixing, etc. But, they only get 3 skill points a level, dropped to 2 by intelligence. So he could do Drive and Repair, but he'd never be able to get the other skills necessary for the advanced classes.

You know, you don't have to max your skills out. Instead of having two skills with 4 ranks at level 1, you could have three skills at 3, 3 and 2 ranks.

 

[Scion]

Regardless, I suggest you think of Intelligence affecting skill points this way:

If you're really bothered by the effect of low Int on skills

I dont care about int and skills really, but I do think the way I mentioned earlier makes sense. Probably more sense for d&d than the current incarnation actually.

I have no problem with it as written, but the subject of this thread is, 'must we use int to modify skill points' and the answer, for the houserules forum, is 'no, we do not'.

The way I made up on the fly there has some issues of course, but it is very interesting. It also would help explain, in d&d terms, why some people are better at certain things.

Sure, not perfect. But then neither is the current incarnation, so no loss there.

 

[scholz]

The way I made up on the fly there has some issues of course, but it is very interesting. It also would help explain, in d&d terms, why some people are better at certain things.
Sure, not perfect. But then neither is the current incarnation, so no loss there.

I think a play balance issue is important. I've seen 'dump' stats in lots of games. Charisma usually, but wisdom and int often too for fighter types. So if you took away the Int bonus for skills, there would only be expertise to encourage high int fighter types. I wish there were more benefits for a high charisma. (I think diplomacy dcs should be lower for example). At least wisdom has will saves.

Another way of justifying the int-skill connection is in terms of the character making connections. If you are a good swimmer, you might be able to apply breathing techniques to climbing and such. So even though it is not a matter of 'theory' there are all sort of connections that a higher int person could make.

Also high intelligence makes cross-class skill much more plausible.

 

[Scion]

I dont think extra ranks in swim is going to break the game.

Also, diplomacy is already as close as a skill gets to 'save or die', effectively it ends the combat part of the encounter. It is an incredibly powerful ability as is The diplomat in my current group had a +20 by second level, talk about impressive.

 

[Old Gumphrey]

I suggest you think of Intelligence affecting skill points this way:

There's something inherently wrong with telling someone how to think in a houserules thread, wouldn't you say?

I think the 'new' skill system would be really interesting at least. I also like the idea of only applying Int bonus to skill points, but it's mostly the low-skill classes you want to try playing low-int characters with, meaning dummy rogues would still get 8 skills...but under the system Scion is hot for creating, a dexy rogue that's dumb as a brick would still be proficient at dex skills; say, maybe, a half-orc thug type? Sounds cool to me. The only problem I see is that Dex and Cha skills are generally the "best" skills available, and spellcasters would require high Con just to get points for Concentration.

 

[DreamChaser]

There's something inherently wrong with telling someone how to think in a houserules thread, wouldn't you say?

:\
Suggestion. I said suggestion. I meant suggestion. Please don't put words into my mouth for the sake of undermining my argument. If you want to undermine my argument, do it by proving my ideas lack merit. (and please note my sig.)

Recently the point of the houserules forum seems to have become (to some people) "come up with ideas that never get challenged by such silly things as balance and the existing rules."

It is fine if you think that but please don't get snarky with those who are interested in what you have to say but don't accept all ideas without first hashing out what it means to the rest o the game.

I dont think extra ranks in swim is going to break the game.

No. But extra ranks in Tumble, Swim, Diplomacy, Concentration (which would become a freebe skill for everyone), Heal, and Search could easily break the game.

DC

 

[Scion]

No. But extra ranks in Tumble, Swim, Diplomacy, Concentration (which would become a freebe skill for everyone), Heal, and Search could easily break the game.

Assuming, of course, that the first initial burst of inspiration I had is the actual system that is worked out in the end (doubtful) then you are free to prove it

Lets say that someone has straight 14's (36 point buy, higher than a good number of games I would imagine).

Normally this would get you 2 skill points + class + racial + misc.

With, the system as initially proposed, you would instead get two points for str based skills, 2 points for dex based skills, 2 points for con based skills, 2 points for int based skills, 2 points for wis based skills and 2 points for cha based skills, half of the normal amount for the class, racial and misc.

Now, if no skills are 'cross classed' effectively (except for the class skill points of course), only 'cross stat', then there are a couple of points for each type plus some overflow from the class.

Unfortunately the skills are not currently balanced this way, mainly because there are few skills in certain stat blocks.

Otherwise, skills generally do not break the game. Few are that powerful, most provide flavor.

Now, the second method gives 2 points for each stat (total of 12) along with the rest. Which is roughly 10 points ahead of the other (I say roughly because the 12 are highly restricted where they can go, but the other 2 will tend to not be nearly so much).

However, while they have these extra points they also do not benefit from the stat bonus directly added on. This means that overall skill bonuses will be slightly lower. You will have more points, but the overall totals will be less until later levels.

So, lower level people wont be quite as good, while higher level people will wind up being better.

Characters who pick a certain class generally strive for certain things already. A dextrous rogue wants to have lots of points in dex related things and so on and so forth, so if the rogue in this case has an 18 dex he will have less point buy points to go to other stats (causeing less points for those) and he will put his extra 4 points of dex based skill points into the skills he wants.

All in all, except for a imbalance for con, this system actually looks like it would work very nicely.

Natural skill (from ability) in a certain field would allow that person to learn it faster. I know that there are actual studies out there about this sort of thing exactly actually, so there is some correlation in the real world for those who care.

It also makes charisma slightly stronger, I doubt anyone would complain about that

While it is complicated, I certainly dont see it as being overpowered. If you have a +2 to str then normally all of your str based skills would be at +2, with this that is not true, but you gain 2 points each level for str based skills. It makes sense in some ways, and not so much in others. But, as that is the same for the current system I dont think you can complain about that too much

 

[Werther von G]

This came about because I wanted to create a dumb-ish, Int 8, Wis 8 Tough hero for d20 Modern. His saving grace is he was good with cars, driving, fixing, etc. But, they only get 3 skill points a level, dropped to 2 by intelligence. So he could do Drive and Repair, but he'd never be able to get the other skills necessary for the advanced classes.

A moment of contemplation:

Tough Hero. Well, that makes Drive and Craft (mechanical) into class skills, so that's an advantage. Taking the Blue Collar background gives Repair and a +1 to one of the other two. That gives you "good with cars." If you want to be better than that, there are the Gearhead and Vehicle Op feats.