Mustrum's Mythical Fighter Techniques

[Elf Witch]

If that breaks your suspension of disbelief, then you clearly didn't grow up watching Dragonball Z like I did.

Unless you are talking about 4E, Fighters have a long way to go before they need to worry about being overpowered. I mean, 3E's Warblade and other Tome of Battle classes are undoubtably vastly more powerful than a standard 3E fighter, but they were hardly overpowered. They were still significantly weaker than the 3E Wizard, Druid, and Cleric, after all. They actually sat right in the spot I'd call "appropriately powerful." The Fighter needs some pretty potent stuff in order to stay balanced. I'd say that both the Warblade and the 4E fighter made a lot of sense without any overtly supernatural abilities, too. I don't think you have much reason to have those worries.

I grew up watching Star Trek and the Time Tunnel. And My Mother the Car. Which is most likely why I don't have any issue with sentient items.

I am not going to disagree that the fighter needs improvement but as you pointed out it is not just the wizard but the cleric, druid and I am going to add rogue. Once a rogue has a decent use magic item they can use spells that make them more effective in combat and with their sneak attack sometimes do more damage than the fighter.

I think most of what the OP wrote is pretty awesome I just had an issue with the spell thing and the dragon.

 

[TwinBahamut]

I am not going to disagree that the fighter needs improvement but as you pointed out it is not just the wizard but the cleric, druid and I am going to add rogue. Once a rogue has a decent use magic item they can use spells that make them more effective in combat and with their sneak attack sometimes do more damage than the fighter.

The rogue isn't quite as far beyond the Fighter as the others you mention, but you've reminded me of something I've thought about before.

Why can't the Fighter use magic wands? Why can a Rogue only use them with over-complicated Use Magic Device rules?

I've always thought that part of 3E was a bit strange. Theoretically, magic items are supposed to level the playing field between non-spellcasters and spellcasters. However, the majority of the best magic items are restricted to only being usable by people who can already cast those spells. Spell trigger and spell completion items, to be precise. This means that, in addition to the greater power of their class features, spellcasters can make better use of magical loot than non-spellcasters can. A randomly generated pile of magic items will likely favor a Wizard more than a Fighter. More importantly, a Fighter (even one with high Int) can't use something like a Wand of Cure Light Wounds or a Scroll of Greater Teleport in order to make up for his differences in power, versatility, and agency.

Maybe it's just because I'm fond of roguelikes, but I rather like the idea of Fighters getting some ability to use spells via wands, scrolls, and other such items. A game entirely dominated by spells and vancian casters isn't my preference, but a Fighter who can use a Wand of Dispel Magic would fit better into such a game than one who cannot.

Still, this is probably a bit of a tangent. Sorry.

 

[Black Knight Irios]

I'm supporting the idea that a fighter should be able to go beyond the scope of the mundane.

At the same time I would strongly support a module for a low magic fantasy setting where fighters can't do gravity defying stunts and are rather mundane.

But whatever the setting a daily resource for fighters seems like the way to go. I really like having to think a bit more about what I do than spamming 2-3 attacks over and over again.

And yes, I could just play a Wizard and get what I want but I like Fighters and therefore, I like to see them buffed.


One of our campaigns is right now waiting to be picked up again. We are all about level 19. I have talked to the DM and we both agree, that due to the things our characters experienced it would be nice that our rather mundane characters (esp. the two fighters) could do some more crazy stuff than just wacking away with a weapon. Therefore, we probably change the system when relaunching the campaign.
So if 5E would give us the possibility to play some wuxia-esque fighters that posses some abilities that go beyond the mundane we might stick with D&D as our system of choice.

 

[WarlockLord]

Just how many spells does your wizard have a day and did he sneak in and read the DMs notes so that he knows exactly what spells he needs that day.

Also while he is casting all these protections on himself what are the dragon and vampire doing? Are they being gentleman and just letting him cast all these things?

But you know clerics, paladin, sorcerers get his spell to and you can buy an item with it on it so the classes that don't get have access to it as well.

And the vampire and dragon could also have a ring of counter spells. And why the dragon keeps the wizard busy the vampire teleports and gets the item and then teleports away with it to bad the wizard didn't have anyone else with him to stop the wizard. Oh let me guess the wizard is going to summon a monster. And while is he doing that the dragon being the gentleman he is not goint to attack that round.

I am not shifting goal posts at all the encounter was with a dragon and a vampire who attacked the party on the way to the cairn to retrieve an important relic you said that a wizard could have have handled that encounter by himself.

But to do that you had the wizard teleport home to cast a bunch of spells to summon an eferti and all I am pointing out that while you are doing this the world keeps turning and the dragon and vampire continue on with their mission.

I am also pointing out to use your tactics the wizard needs to be either neutral or evil he also needs to have available the exact spells he needs to accomplish all this if he does not he can wait until tomorrow but by then the relic has been destroyed.

So the wizard teleports in grabs the item and of course he can't ever misroll and have the teleport go astray because that never happens because wizards never fail any saves or have dice that are rolling badly.

But because the wizard is a PC the NPC can't possibly use his tactics against him and scry on him and teleport after him and get him and the relic and the lone wizard does not have any team members to watch his back while he sleeps to get back his spells or protect him while he is memorizing new ones.


And again I need to have a talk with my dice because I have been hit and lost a spell and I have flubbed my combat casting roll and lost the spell. Now granted I believe that it is to easy to max skills out but that goes for all of them not just the ones wizards do I have seen rogues that have a hard time ever taking an AOO because they have maxed out tumble.

Might as well throw incantatrix persist into the mix. So the dragon and the vampire don't get to cast spells at the wizard because, you know, he's persisting all this crap. 24 hour displacement makes up for a lot...

Or he could just cast before the fight. Like before he enters the room, or sees the vampire on a dragon on the horizon or whatever. But of course, I'm sure you will shift the goalposts again with some new fact like the dragon and vampire being immediately teleported right next to the wizard by Space Plot Gods of Bull and of course the wizard has no prep time.

Plus misdirection and rope trick for not dying. And familiars for night watch.

And yes, you are shifting the goal posts. First it was "there's no way a lone mid-level wizard can beat a dragon and a vampire," then it was "well not while getting this magic item that I added to the plot," and "well, he can't stop them from stealing the magic item while beating them in combat at the same time."

I'm not even sure how the hell the vampire wizard is teleporting if he and the dragon are part of a EL 11 encounter. That would be 2 CR 9s. Vampires are 2 CRs above the base critter, so a 7th-level vamp wizard and a CR 9 dragon. Have you noticed 7th level wizards can't teleport yet? Or call efreet? And no, they don't have as many items or incantatrix silliness because a) you need to have 3 levels in incantatrix to persist spells and b)NPCs get far less wealth than PCs.

And I'm forced to question the efficacy of your team when if the vamp had been smarter, he'd be running stinking cloud and hold person rather than fireball so he could disable those team members. Such as sorcerors and rogues with poor fort saves. But, hey, um, teamwork.

As for spells per day, depends on the wizard. A focused specialist can have as many as a sorceror. He can acquire info about what spells to use via divination, or just use one of the many builds that let him cast spontaneously.

Oh, by the way, a dragon really won't "keep the wizard busy."

Shivering Touch – Spell – D&D Tools

 

[Elf Witch]

The rogue isn't quite as far beyond the Fighter as the others you mention, but you've reminded me of something I've thought about before.

Why can't the Fighter use magic wands? Why can a Rogue only use them with over-complicated Use Magic Device rules?

I've always thought that part of 3E was a bit strange. Theoretically, magic items are supposed to level the playing field between non-spellcasters and spellcasters. However, the majority of the best magic items are restricted to only being usable by people who can already cast those spells. Spell trigger and spell completion items, to be precise. This means that, in addition to the greater power of their class features, spellcasters can make better use of magical loot than non-spellcasters can. A randomly generated pile of magic items will likely favor a Wizard more than a Fighter. More importantly, a Fighter (even one with high Int) can't use something like a Wand of Cure Light Wounds or a Scroll of Greater Teleport in order to make up for his differences in power, versatility, and agency.

Maybe it's just because I'm fond of roguelikes, but I rather like the idea of Fighters getting some ability to use spells via wands, scrolls, and other such items. A game entirely dominated by spells and vancian casters isn't my preference, but a Fighter who can use a Wand of Dispel Magic would fit better into such a game than one who cannot.

Still, this is probably a bit of a tangent. Sorry.

I have always thought wands should be used by anybody who knows the trigger word. So a fighter takes the wand gets it identified and then can use it.


It would help in games where a niche is missing it would give the mundanes control over some of the magic they would like without having to ask the mage.

 

[Elf Witch]

Might as well throw incantatrix persist into the mix. So the dragon and the vampire don't get to cast spells at the wizard because, you know, he's persisting all this crap. 24 hour displacement makes up for a lot...

Or he could just cast before the fight. Like before he enters the room, or sees the vampire on a dragon on the horizon or whatever. But of course, I'm sure you will shift the goalposts again with some new fact like the dragon and vampire being immediately teleported right next to the wizard by Space Plot Gods of Bull and of course the wizard has no prep time.

Plus misdirection and rope trick for not dying. And familiars for night watch.

And yes, you are shifting the goal posts. First it was "there's no way a lone mid-level wizard can beat a dragon and a vampire," then it was "well not while getting this magic item that I added to the plot," and "well, he can't stop them from stealing the magic item while beating them in combat at the same time."

I'm not even sure how the hell the vampire wizard is teleporting if he and the dragon are part of a EL 11 encounter. That would be 2 CR 9s. Vampires are 2 CRs above the base critter, so a 7th-level vamp wizard and a CR 9 dragon. Have you noticed 7th level wizards can't teleport yet? Or call efreet? And no, they don't have as many items or incantatrix silliness because a) you need to have 3 levels in incantatrix to persist spells and b)NPCs get far less wealth than PCs.

And I'm forced to question the efficacy of your team when if the vamp had been smarter, he'd be running stinking cloud and hold person rather than fireball so he could disable those team members. Such as sorcerors and rogues with poor fort saves. But, hey, um, teamwork.

As for spells per day, depends on the wizard. A focused specialist can have as many as a sorceror. He can acquire info about what spells to use via divination, or just use one of the many builds that let him cast spontaneously.

Oh, by the way, a dragon really won't "keep the wizard busy."

Shivering Touch – Spell – D&D Tools

You can throw in any thing you want on paper to show that omg the magic users don't need anyone else but you know what I call a big BS on that because 30 years of game play has proven to me that is not true.

Again I described the encounter as it was run and you were the one who said a wizard could handle it alone. All you have proven is that if the wizard knows ahead of time exactly what is going to happen and has time to prepare for it and he is willing to make deal with evil creatures he doesn't need anyone else.

I have asked you with the encounter as it was run to show me how the wizard could handle it all my himself.

Number 1 the dragon came over from behind the cairn we didn't know he was there. The vampire had improved invisibility and for awhile we thought we were dealing with an invisible dragonrider.

Number 2 we were all after the same artifact and it was more important that we get it then the they got it.

Number 3 we had just had an encounter with a group of lizardmen so we were not at full resources.

That was our encounter now using all that you tell me how the wizard could have done it by his lonesome?

Because your way makes him leave the encounter giving the dragon and the vampire time to get into the cairn and get the piece of the staff of law.


On paper I can make casters do anything but in game it is totally different.

Why is it people who think that the game is unbalanced because a wizard can skry and then teleport don't take into consideration that if the PCs can do so can the NPCs?

So the wizard has flown up and touched the dragon and made his roll to get through the SR and he had the spell memorized and he rolled well on his 3D6 he might habe just hurt the dragon enough to make it fly away.

Because again it is not automatic that he had all these spells ready , that he made the rolls and that while he was taking a round to cast fly the dragon and the vampire have not hit him with so much damage that he is not dead or bleeding out. And while he is pursing the dragon who is also flying which means he has to get into melee range the vampire is not jaut sitting there but doing things as well. Which is why he needs help to handle this.

Again everything you come up with assumes that the DM is not using good tactics, that the dice are cooperating with the wizard. If I was the DM and a wizard my himslef decided to fight this encounter like described then I would simply have the wizard vampire hold an action until the wizard goes then either cast a counterspell or hit the wizard with so much damage that he has to roll to get his spell off.

Or I would have the dragon just grapple the pesky wizard after all the wizard most likely can't win a grapple check. Or how about just bite, claw, claw the wizard after all a D4 hit die doesn't mean a lot of hit dice for the wizard.

But then again maybe we play the game wrong because a dragon at any level has always been a scary thing for us even with the god like wizard with us. And even with wizards and clerics in the party we have been hard pressed to just have an easy win of it.

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

I wouldn't mind if the discussion would steer back a bit more to the actual concept, instead of dealing with anecdotical examples of spellcaster battles or whatever. You don't seem to be going to convince each other anyway, unless maybe you actually were playing at the same game table and see each other's play style in action.

 

[Mishihari Lord]

On the digression:

Verisimilitude is always dependent on what type of game world you're trying to emulate. If it's Harry Potter, then wizards fly and muggles don't. If it's LOTR or WoT then nobody flies. If it's Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon then yes you have flying fighters.

D&D doesn't really model anything but itself, so you have to look at the body of game world characteristics built up over the last couple of decades in the game books, fiction and modules. In this literature (ok- not a great word for it) you can fly either because it's part of your innate abilities (dragon, ghost), or because you have a spell for it. The a human fighter doesn't have flight as an innate ability and by definition is the guy who doesn't cast spells. So giving him flight without some kind of reasonable-in-the-game-world explanation doesn't make sense in the game-world physics, which is just a long way of saying that it breaks verisimilitude.




On the actual topic of the thread:

I like the system quite a lot. Stamina based combat maneuvers make a lot of sense to me, and I liked the particular maneuvers. You obviously put a lot of work into this and it shows in the quality.

Using stamina for social skills is a bit of a disconnect though. I think a better method could be base on reputation. A fighter gains reputation through great deeds and can lose it through base ones or even less impressive ones. Access to various abilities opens up at set levels of reputation. Since these are by definition for interaction rather than combat, combat balance should not be an issue.

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

On the actual topic of the thread:

I like the system quite a lot. Stamina based combat maneuvers make a lot of sense to me, and I liked the particular maneuvers. You obviously put a lot of work into this and it shows in the quality.

Using stamina for social skills is a bit of a disconnect though. I think a better method could be base on reputation. A fighter gains reputation through great deeds and can lose it through base ones or even less impressive ones. Access to various abilities opens up at set levels of reputation. Since these are by definition for interaction rather than combat, combat balance should not be an issue.

You have a point there. The way I envision the social activity done here, I imagine it's a log of physical legwork and a lot of mental stress, which costs stamina. But it can seem like a stretch.

Maybe one could introduce some alternate mechanic for them. I could even envision to deliberately delaying such a mechanic to a certain level, so the complexity of the fighter is relatively low for a while, allowing the player to master that subset of his class, and then introduce him to an additional one. That could still retain the feeling that this class is one of the simpler ones, without making it boring and/or weak.

 

[Crazy Jerome]

You have a point there. The way I envision the social activity done here, I imagine it's a log of physical legwork and a lot of mental stress, which costs stamina. But it can seem like a stretch.

Maybe one could introduce some alternate mechanic for them. I could even envision to deliberately delaying such a mechanic to a certain level, so the complexity of the fighter is relatively low for a while, allowing the player to master that subset of his class, and then introduce him to an additional one. That could still retain the feeling that this class is one of the simpler ones, without making it boring and/or weak.

Alternately, introduce a Fame/Reputation system that applies to everyone, but structure the rationale and mechanics behind it so that it favors characters who can spend more time doing the mundane stuff--including physical legwork.

That could be as simple as building in some bias for what the characters do normally, in regards to the broader population. For example, a fighter or rogue is more able to get fame with town guards, merchants, common people, etc. because the things they do day to day are more understandable to such people. This isn't a whole lot different than the way noble warriors (or athletes several decades ago) will relate to a broad section of the populace than the more academically inclined.

There are exceptions, of course, but if you build it right, those would be handled naturally. Wizards find it a lot easier to get in good with sages because the have some shared interests. Rogues don't quite average the fame of fighters, because while riding and sword fighting and climbing can be impressive, picking a lock is more esoteric.

I think I've mentioned this before, but if you have a Fame/Reputation system that grows organically out of the relationships that people have in the game, it will tend to have a minor but significant bias against esoteric pursuits. Dealings with nobility/rulers is the obvious big exception that might matter. So that's a good reason to think about dusting off BECMI land and territory influence, or at least some equivalent in the vein of noble titles or the like.

Such a system should be fairly easy to treat as a framework, where you can use the stated mechanical bits provided if you want, or instead absorb the intent as a guideline and then run with it as part of DM adjudication.