mutants and masterminds, what version is better?

[Assenpfeffer]

People didn't like it becuse it used the D20 mechanic, but varied some of the rules to much. If that makes sense.

Then why do the same poeple like M&M, when it departs more from baseline d20 than SAS20 does?

The answer is, of course, that SAS20 sticks too close to the D&D interpretation of d20 elements like classes and levels. Compare what levels mean in SAS20 (and in D&D,) and in M&M. There's an entirely different rationale for them - and there needs to be, if they're going to be retained in the supers game.

The other issue is that the Tri-Stat power system is essentially just tacked onto a superized D&D character creation system - and the fusion doesn't work very well. The core of any supers game is character creation (something that the folks behind Hero have long understood, and those behind Heroes Unlimited don't get.) If your character creation system has major problems, the whole system collapses.

Combat and task resolution and other minor factors are, in isolation, handled just fine in SAS20 (though Spycraft is the bechmark that I use, rather than d20 Modern.) The problem isn't fiddly bits of the damage system like radiation or autofire, it's that the character creation system (which, again, needs to be firing on all cylinders in a superhero game) doesn't work very well and is poorly integrated with the largely unmodified Tri-Stat SAS powers system.

M&M is a d20 supers game designed as a supers game, from the ground up. SAS d20 is a supers game shoehorned into d20 after the fact.

 

[Gospog]

KenM,

M&M is excellent. We have played several games and the rules, while slightly different from D20, are easy to get used to.

Even better, when we switched back to our "other" D20 campaign (Star Wars), the transition back to "normal" D20 was pretty painless.

I reccomend D20 highly, but have never played SAS, so cannot give a comparative opinion.

As for the Hero system, I played Champions back in the day and thought it was ok. I plan on having a more updated opinion after I play Hero's latest edition at an upcoming game convention.

For superhero games, my ultimate favorite is the Original Marvel Superheroes games from TSR, and I think M&M captures that fun feel while "keeping it D20".

Good luck and have fun!

 

[Assenpfeffer]

M&M is excellent. We have played several games and the rules, while slightly different from D20, are easy to get used to.

Wholehearted agreement.

As for the Hero system, I played Champions back in the day and thought it was ok. I plan on having a more updated opinion after I play Hero's latest edition at an upcoming game convention.

One of the biggest changes to the new (5th) edition is that there are a whole lot more options for streamlining combat. This is something you may not get a feel for in a con event. Otherwise, the system is much the same. A few powers have been folded into other powers, and a few perks have been turned into skills, and vice versa.

For superhero games, my ultimate favorite is the Original Marvel Superheroes games from TSR, and I think M&M captures that fun feel while "keeping it D20".

I loathed Marvel Super Heroes when it came out. Nowadays, I admire it for its elegance of resolution, though I still think it had problems. Even at its worst it was far better than Heroes Unlimited. M&M is heavier mechanically than MSH, but I don't see that as a liability.

 

[qstor]

I picked up M&M over the weekend. Its fantastic! Mini review: The art is awesome. The layout and rules format are great. If you are interstested in the d20 system and have the extra cash. I very highly recommend this game. Give your players something else to play or as just a player if your intersted in starting a new campaign as a DM grab this. I'm looking forward to getting Freedom City and some of the other books for this. Green Ronin has never let me down as a player DM or customer and I can only praise this book.

*steps down from soapbox*

Mike

 

[Kichwas]

M&M, while it has some flexibility issues (compared to Hero and Tr-Stat SAS,) is a very serviceable d20 superhero game and an excellent adaptation of d20 mechanics into the supers genre.

Kind of like how a Yoga instructor has flexibility issues...

It's the most flexibile of the three.

I did a comparritive review of MnM vs. SaS here:
http://www.rpg.net/reviews/archive/9/9183.phtml


If you're near San Francisco, I'm looking for players still. People who like GMing have highest priority of course.

I've got a story hour here:
http://www.greenronin.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=3133

 

[teitan]

I have both MnM and SAS Tri Stat. I think both are great, and while I got the feeling that MnM was more like Marvel than Hero from the previews and such, when I got it the book it felt more like Villains & Vigilantes. Really a great comic book feel to it. We have been playing it since early January and I have had no problems with task resolution etc that weren't my fault and it runs very smooth and fast.

I really like Silver Age Sentinels a lot and would have to say it is as flexible as Hero, and a great looking book. It has the feel of the old DC Heroes game in a way, and the mock up covers etc give it the feeling of taking its subject matter very seriously, kind of like an archival kind of thing as opposed to a game in many ways. It looks to run fast with EPIC fights. By running fast I mean that the task resolution is very fast, though the fights could go on and on, kind of like the comics. This isn't like Hero, where it is the TASK RESOLUTION that bogs it down, its the system for offense and defense. I want to try this game out next for a Supers game now that I have introduced my players to MnM, I just balk at teaching them character creation since I have the limited edition version.

Now there are nitpicks I have with both systems. MnM is very, very flexible but requires the wholesale creation of new powers at times because it is not effects based ala Hero and Silver Age Sentinels, it is power based. WHile a power could be easily modified to fit your vision, it would be cheaper and more efficient to just create a new power using the power creation system. It is not overly complex or anything, just makes for a headache at times. I have NO PROBLEMS with skill costs or anything like that. The game is perfect ouitside of this quibble.

SAS has to make a few allowances for normals, including a chart that provides modifiers for mundane tasks etc to help explain how a normal person can exist in the same world as a super. This is fine by me, but were the system built from the ground up or more of an extrapolation of Big Eyes, Small Mouth, the chart would have been unnecessary. It is not a big issue, though I could see how it could be in game without a good GM's screen with the chart on it. Also, Skills seem a bit too pricey to me. They have weird costs as well, useful skills costing more than the less used ones. Not very realistic, but I think I understand their point on that one.

Honestly, I am kind of of two minds on these games. Both are my favorites, I see so much I love in one and so much I love in the other. GOO has high production standards and so does Green Ronin. Both are well thought out, MnM being an extrapolation and rebuild of D20, SAS being an extrapolation and near rebuilding of BESM. I will be sticking to MnM and buying SAS products on the side, but maybe I will whip out the cash for an unlimited edition of SAS one day and smack my players with it.

JAson

 

[TroyXavier]

Ouch....rather harsh on HU. I like HU and I like M and M. I have not played SAS so I can't venture an opinion on them. However, I have played Champions, and while it's good for making a very detailed character, I never could accept the hours it took to resolve combat. I played with a group, and it would be 2 hours(or so) of roleplaying, then we'd get into a combat...4 hours later we would finally resolve it and wrap up the session. I hope the streamlining has improved it.

 

[JesterPoet]

I just ordered M&M and am really looking forward to reading it. I used to run a lot of DC Heroes. Man, I certainly won't miss those charts. That's for sure.

 

[Insight]

For Those of You Who Haven't Bought MnM Yet...

There is a significant amount of errata in the first printing, and there is rumored to be a second printing (with errata added) on the way. I would suggest waiting for the second printing unless you a) like paying $40 twice for essentially the same book, or b) don't mind carrying around 4 pages of errata along with your MnM book.

 

[baseballfury]

MnM is $32.95, not $40. And compared to the D&D PHB, its errata is paltry.