My Attempt to Define RPG's - RPG's aren't actually Games

[billd91]

The thing is, while you can create "scenarios" for board games and wargames, those scenarios are still extremely limited in scope.

That's just another continuum on which to rate a game - scope can range from limited (Chutes and Ladders) to medium for wargames with scenario design (ASL, Warhammer 40K) to expansive (RPGs).

 

[Lanefan]

Just as without the board and pieces, you cannot play Chess. Without the board and pieces, you cannot play Chutes and Ladders. Without the cards, you cannot play poker. Without the game setup portion, you cannot play most games, including RPGs. There is still nothing you've said that alters the following formula, which applies to almost every game, including RPGs. Rules--->game setup--->play.

And you cannot (usually) play a typical RPG without character sheets and dice and so forth...or, I suppose, an online server that replicates one or more of these...any more than you can play football without a ball or something else to kick around. You need the physical real-world game pieces to play any game, and RPGs are not here an exception.

What makes RPGs different is that there also some potentially non-physical set-up required; that of creating a scenario or background or setting in which play can proceed.

The mechanics typically don't, but the rules do. The rules give the DM advice on how to go about creating scenarios and the game world.

To be fussy about it, that advice is not part of the rules, it's just advice. Same as a chess set's paperwork might include some advice for beginning players on how to play - it's advice, not rules; and in an RPG situation the DM (or, in rare cases, the group as a whole) still has to do this scenario creation before play can proceed.

Contrast this with the 5e starter box that has a playable adventure included, or the 1e DMG that has rules for random dungeon generation - you can open the materials, figure out the rules, and dive right into playing the game without the intermediate step of the DM having to come up with a background or setting or whatever.

Lanefan

 

[Hussar]

And you cannot (usually) play a typical RPG without character sheets and dice and so forth...or, I suppose, an online server that replicates one or more of these...any more than you can play football without a ball or something else to kick around. You need the physical real-world game pieces to play any game, and RPGs are not here an exception.

What makes RPGs different is that there also some potentially non-physical set-up required; that of creating a scenario or background or setting in which play can proceed.

To be fussy about it, that advice is not part of the rules, it's just advice. Same as a chess set's paperwork might include some advice for beginning players on how to play - it's advice, not rules; and in an RPG situation the DM (or, in rare cases, the group as a whole) still has to do this scenario creation before play can proceed.

Contrast this with the 5e starter box that has a playable adventure included, or the 1e DMG that has rules for random dungeon generation - you can open the materials, figure out the rules, and dive right into playing the game without the intermediate step of the DM having to come up with a background or setting or whatever.

Lanefan

But even with the random dungeon generator, that's still only the beginning of a scenario, not the scenario itself. Not too many people are going to just randomly roll every room and leave it at that. The actual scenario being played out will evolve pretty quickly.

And, [MENTION=44640]bill[/MENTION]91, I'd argue that something like Warhammer 40k isn't "medium" at all. They are both far closer to chutes and ladders as far as flexibility in scenario design. You make the scenario which will always be a war scene between (typically) 2 players using fixed point buys determined by the players. Sure the terrain might change, but, other than the specific units being used, it's still two groups of forces duking it out in a geographical region.

At no point can you use Warhammer 40K to build a coalition of forces to take on a third groups. Warhammer 40k gives no provisions for diplomacy, for example. Scenario creation is extremely limited in scope - terrain design and point buy values is about the only creative element in play.

 

[pemerton]

Warhammer 40k gives no provisions for diplomacy, for example.

It's left pretty thin in classic D&D, also - which takes us back to playing and adjudicating the fiction.

 

[Hussar]

It's left pretty thin in classic D&D, also - which takes us back to playing and adjudicating the fiction.

But it IS there. And, the DM is expected to add to it if that's what's called for in the scenario. My point is that you would never actually DO a diplomacy scenario in Warhammer 40K, while you most certainly could in D&D, even AD&D.

And, again, this isn't 1974 anymore. We have come some distance from those early days. Pointing to one of the original RPG's and saying, "Well, this doesn't qualify" is a bit disingenuous.

 

[pemerton]

But it IS there. And, the DM is expected to add to it if that's what's called for in the scenario. My point is that you would never actually DO a diplomacy scenario in Warhammer 40K, while you most certainly could in D&D, even AD&D.

And, again, this isn't 1974 anymore. We have come some distance from those early days. Pointing to one of the original RPG's and saying, "Well, this doesn't qualify" is a bit disingenuous.

I don't follow the second paragraph. What doesn't qualify as what?

RPGing involves playing the fiction. You keep emphasising the scenario, as if some sort of prep is crucial, when it's one feature of some RPGs. What all RPGs have in common is a shared fiction, which matters to resolution, and which the players can play directly (eg "My guy kicks in the door!" "My guy swims across the river!" - neither is a permissible move in WH40k, or in Talisman, if not covered in the rulebook).

 

[Hussar]

I don't follow the second paragraph. What doesn't qualify as what?

RPGing involves playing the fiction. You keep emphasising the scenario, as if some sort of prep is crucial, when it's one feature of some RPGs. What all RPGs have in common is a shared fiction, which matters to resolution, and which the players can play directly (eg "My guy kicks in the door!" "My guy swims across the river!" - neither is a permissible move in WH40k, or in Talisman, if not covered in the rulebook).

All RPG's require scenario creation. Whether you are creating it beforehand or as you play, it is impossible to play without creating a scenario. Even your own examples show that.

 

[pemerton]

I don't follow the second paragraph. What doesn't qualify as what?

RPGing involves playing the fiction. You keep emphasising the scenario, as if some sort of prep is crucial, when it's one feature of some RPGs. What all RPGs have in common is a shared fiction, which matters to resolution, and which the players can play directly (eg "My guy kicks in the door!" "My guy swims across the river!" - neither is a permissible move in WH40k, or in Talisman, if not covered in the rulebook).

All RPG's require scenario creation. Whether you are creating it beforehand or as you play, it is impossible to play without creating a scenario. Even your own examples show that.

But once the connection between scenario prepration and prep is severed, what is scenario creation? It's just the GM playing the game! And what does it consist in? Establishing shared fiction for the players to engage via action declaration for their PCs!

 

[Bedrockgames]

All RPG's require scenario creation. Whether you are creating it beforehand or as you play, it is impossible to play without creating a scenario. Even your own examples show that.

But that is part of the game, not a thing you are adding in top of it. Even in something like the white box, if my memory is correct, it talks about making dungeons for example.

But what is the point of all this hairsplitting? I just don't even understand where you are trying to go with this. Everyone understands one of the things that makes table top gaming unique is there is this sense of possibility when you sit down at the table, and that the experience feels so different from other media (like books, video games, etc). No one is saying table top games are not unique. I think we are just puzzled by the fixation on this point (so much so that posters who are usually at odds with one another, appear to be on the same page scratching their heads here).

 

[Maxperson]

All RPG's require scenario creation. Whether you are creating it beforehand or as you play, it is impossible to play without creating a scenario. Even your own examples show that.

You can't play Monopoly without a board, pieces and money(or a representation of it), either. With very few exceptions, the same goes for all games. You need the set-up portion to play.