My beefs with D20

[Tom Cashel]

Not sure what you mean. Spells are presented in a standardized format.

OKay.

So Fog Cloud, Acid Fog, Fireball, Detect Evil, Time Stop, Stoneskin, Haste and Cloudkill all use the same mechanic?

 

[Desdichado]

No, it's not funny, because you've apparently never had players who do nothing but read, re-read, and re-re-read the rules between every game session. (And then re-re-re-read the rules and chack the Rules Forum at EN World before the game.)

They won't let you do things like that. You have to study enough rules to keep up with them.

Now...where's the time to concentrate on other things, like NPCs and role-playing?

I had to destroy my entire D&D campaign, and switch to CoC, to stop them.

Yeah, that's definately a problem with the system you've got there, TC.

 

[Tom Cashel]

The system supports that behavior. That's self-evident, in my opinion.

 

[Crothian]

No, it's not funny, because you've apparently never had players who do nothing but read, re-read, and re-re-read the rules between every game session. (And then re-re-re-read the rules and chack the Rules Forum at EN World before the game.)

Well, the seemed to have missed rule 0 then. I have had players like that, but it doesn't bother me. They are free to not play in my game.

 

[Mercule]

Personal thought is that I love the fact that D20 has plenty of rules. My pleasure comes not so much from there being a lot of them, but from the fact that (at least the core) they are well integrated and balanced.

And by balance, I mean most character choices are equally valid and playable. No single class grossly outshines the others, nor is any particularly undesirable (although they may better geared to different environs).

By having a well done set of rules, if frees me from having to constantly muck with the system. I can actually devote my attension to running/playing the game. I like books of fluff just fine, but the core rules of a game should be rules. And I'll never fault a game for paying attension to the rules.

If I have one gripe about the d20 system, it would be that the most commonly used method of balancing things is slots of "x uses/day". I don't consider that good design, but it's quite integrated into the system.

 

[Majere]

The system supports that behavior. That's self-evident, in my opinion.

Dont quote me on this, but the DCs and Dc modifiers in the DMG and PHB are guide lines. Ultimately any DC or Save is set by the DM which is where the ubiquitous +/-2 came from in the 3.0 DMG. No idea if it is still in 3.5. If A player told me the DC wasnt X Id remind tham that they didnt write the module and that they couldnt possibly know all the modifiers I was playing in, like the +10DC for contradicting the DM.
My DM has never ever played any monster straight from the MM, Id love to see a rules lawyer meet on of his undead coz they all do freaky non rule things. Know why ? Because he wrote them himself, he didnt copy they out of anything published

 

[Hypersmurf]

For example, tons of people play Monopoly, but it's rare to find two people who play it exactly the same way. If you want to focus on story and character interaction, the core rules do cover it.

Story and character interaction!?

You must have a different set of Monopoly core rules to the ones I'm used to...

-Hyp.

 

[takyris]

I agree that the d20 system tends to standardize things. That's one of its goals.

Perhaps if I were playing with a group of drama people (and I'm not saying that in an "ew, drama people" way -- my wife is a drama person, so I do like 'em), I'd prefer a system that allowed me to make more rulings on the fly.

d20, however, makes it easier for me to be fair and evenhanded. I run a lower risk of getting yelled at for alleged favoritism of one player over another (always letting one guy's cinematic plans work brilliantly and giving the other a flat "no") because the rules do most of the work for me.

That said, now that my group knows the rules well, we're having some wonderful cinematic combat, and things are much freer and looser in feeling, because we all know what we're doing.

I'm also playing with computer geeks (and I'm not saying that in an "ew, computer geeks" way -- they're all my buddies, so I do like 'em), and as such, I don't have to worry much about rules stuff. Computer geeks learn systems quickly (in my experience).

 

[Orius]

Well, I'll just start with a small match, someone else will open up with the flamethrower. Note it's not a good idea to go to a pro-(any topic) forums, and post an anti-(that topic) post...

Yes, but those who are green and rubbery never learn, hence the need for flamethrowers.

C1: Before d20, number of publishers other than WOTC who could publish their own ideas - 0
After d20, number of publishgers other than WOTC who can publish their own ideas - too many to count.

Plus see Creature Catalog, Homebrews, Rogue Gallery for stuff just on this board for 'ideas'

Actually, before d20, anyone could publish their ideas. The problem was, without the OGL, they'd have to cook up their own mechanics and compete with the big dogs. So many promising ideas failed because the market was too small for that much competion. Of course a lot of crap died too, but no one cares about the bad games.

 

[Orius]

C1: The focus is too much on rules over ideas, and that really takes
away from the core ideas of role playing (imagination!!!)

As others have said, that's because you're supposed to apply your own imagination. There was a reason, many years ago, the now dead TSR had the motto, "Products of Your Imagination".