My Brainfart

[I'm A Banana]

Essentially, you want a fully-fledged non-combat statblock in the same way 4E provides for a combat statblock.

That would certainly go a LONG way toward helping me use these things in the game.

In fact, "generic townsfolk" stats and non-combat statblocks might, in combo, solve my problem.

The trouble is, 4E seems to be focused on providing rules for conflict situations, mainly combat, while leaving the non-conflict roleplaying situations up to, well, roleplaying. It's a throwback to the earlier editions of D&D, and one thing that appeals to a lot of the "grognards" who embrace and enjoy 4th Edition.

You betcha. I accept that I'm a bizarre deviant for wanting rules for roleplaying, but it's a psychology thing for me. Probably related to my actor's training: even when you improv, you have some sort of "set up," some sort of direction, and that helps you (or me, at least) worry about fleshing out the character and the scenario without worrying about where it goes. It can then flow naturally into fighting or weaseling or whatever.

Anyway, when it comes to dice rolling in ragards to such "backstory hobbies", the 4E rules have some pretty simple, but effective suggestions... Roll a 1d20 + 1/2 Level + Appropriate ability modifier. That effectively represents an untrained skill check. Add a +5 bonus, if it's something the person should be really good at. The target is either an opposed check, the target's AC/Fort/Ref/Will defense, or some flat DC you choose (there's a chart on p.42 of the DMG with DC suggestions by level).
...
You don't need to have specific skills for them, because it's all built into the basics. It essentially allows you to easily make up non-combat stats on the fly, without having them effect the combat stats in any way.
Furthermore, you don't need a long list of "Craft (basketweaving) +2" skills cluttering up the combat stats... Just a quick blurb on the creatures personality and habits, which doesn't even have to written down, depending on your inclinations as a DM.

I like this, but I still have a problem with the fact that it feels very hand-wavey to me, and is still left up to my spur-of-the-moment decision about whether or not they should be good or bad at the given task. It's unsatisfying for me personally because it distracts me from simply playing the game and getting on with it, because it feels too metagamey to me as a DM, and because I'm very likely to be wildly inconsistent with it.

Basically, I think I do need such stuff, because its not clutter for me, but stuff that helps me role-play the creature in a fully dimensional way. But that really did simplify what I actually need, so thanks a lot!

Maybe the NONCOMBAT section should include some example trained skills for each monster entry, that would probably help out a lot...I'm still looking at a lot of pre-prep time, but it's something I'll only have to do once in an excel sheet or something, which might be possible....if I have it down and thought about before I need it at the table, that solves my problems, and if I have a big excel list of this stuff, I can call up what I need when I need it...hmm....annoying, but probably worth it.

I think that it would simply be easier for you to play a game that supports your stated preference for prescriptive rules, dude -- whether that means playing D&D 3x or Burning Wheel. I mean, it's clear you want rules that tell you specifically what hobgoblins are in the context of a setting and how they will work in said setting. It's also very clear that D&D4e doesn't do this.

Pffft. Rules were made to be broken, beaten, shot 20 times, and left in a gutter to die screaming while passerby ignore them. In D&D, I think this is doubly true. I was just hoping to find that someone somewhere, in 4e or out there in the aether, had already done my work for me. Turns out I'm such a minority that I may very well be the only person that needs this, but 4e came tantalizingly close.

I enjoy 4e, I just need to hammer it into the perfect shape for me. I did this with 3e, I'll do it with 5e, I think that's part of what appeals to me about D&D. It's never perfect for everyone, so we beat it around. Heck, that's part of why ENWorld is a good place: we're all a little gear-heady around here, to one extent or another.

Now if I could perfect a system that lets me track squares and forced movement without minis or a battle grid, 4e might work quite efficiently for me....

Aside from the monsters with a lot of spell-like abilities, most monsters did only contain non-combat information in their skill list. The only difference seems to be how this is arrived: 3e uses skill point shuffling, 4E just denotes training.
The bigger change from 3E is that non-adventuring or non-conflict skills are no longer modeled in 4E skills.

I think that's exactly where the disconnect comes in for me. Rules for role playing, spelled out before the session, are things I use all the freakin' time. Skill Challenges are great in this respect, but they're not integrated with the creatures, so that just needs to happen....and it kind of sucks that I'll need to do it myself, but meh, that's how I train these award-winning game design muscles.

 

[gonesailing]

Now if I could perfect a system that lets me track squares and forced movement without minis or a battle grid, 4e might work quite efficiently for me....

Me too. But I might try the battle grid

 

[xechnao]

Now if I could perfect a system that lets me track squares and forced movement without minis or a battle grid, 4e might work quite efficiently for me....

I am working on such a system but it is not specifically intended for 4e. If you desperately want something on this AGON has an interesting abstract distance system that could help you as an idea to build one that works with 4e rules fairly well.

 

[jdrakeh]

Really all I'm saying is to imagine characters and monsters the way you would in books and doing so is game system independent.

Then next time, try typing that. Gee.

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

Now if I could perfect a system that lets me track squares and forced movement without minis or a battle grid, 4e might work quite efficiently for me....

I'd like that, too. I am not sure I need it (we have plenty of space and minis where we play), but I would like an interesting, tactical combat system without having to do all those chess-game thing. But maybe that's actually impossible, unless you're willing to accept a major headache?

I think that's exactly where the disconnect comes in for me. Rules for role playing, spelled out before the session, are things I use all the freakin' time. Skill Challenges are great in this respect, but they're not integrated with the creatures, so that just needs to happen....

Stats for role-playing? But I hope we're not talking about Craft & Profession here, right?

A possibility is this: Make a list of relevant traits for NPCs (and maybe PCs, too).
Like a list of possible hobbies, non-conflict skills (Craft, Profession).
Whenever such a topic comes up, just roll a d20 and add a +5 bonus. (I you want, factor in level, but really, there is _no_ need for a 30 level wizard to get a +15 bonus on making cheese. Finding a good ability score for the hobby/craft/profession might be nice).
You can do those even for "personality" stuff.

Das Schwarze Auge uses a interesting flaw system, that grew out of "flaw" ability scores. Basic idea in DSA was always to use below your abiilty score. If you roll below your flaw score, your flaw "wins" and you act according to it.
Flaws could be:
- Curiosity: Usually comes up when something mysterious or interesting comes around, that's probably also dangerous.
- Vengefullness: Someone screwed you, or made a slight against you? Roll to see if you have grudge. Even if the grudge is against a High Class Noble.
- Quick Temper: Someone insults you? Roll to see you chop off his head now or demand a duel.
- Greed: There is money to make? Roll to see if you do it, even if it's dangerous or stupid.
- Superstition: Uh, magic... That might be bad. Roll to see if you prefer running away or bow to the dangerous creature before you lighting that cantrip.

So, if you want to go fully Futuruma-Gygax, roll to see what your NPC does. If a flaw is listed as present, add +5 to any check to act according to the flaw. (DCs should range from 10 to 20, I suppose).

and it kind of sucks that I'll need to do it myself, but meh, that's how I train these award-winning game design muscles.

 

[jmucchiello]

My Notes For Bill the Blacksmith (who loves cheese) for D&D 3.5.
Bill is the Blacksmith of Podunk. He's an Commoner 1 (DMG PG XX; hp 3), all 10's for stats, his max skill bonus is +4, and he has maxxed out Blacksmithery, and Knowledge (fine cheeses). His weapon is his smith's hammer, which takes a -2 to hit because it's not a real weapon.

My Notes for Bill the Blacksmith (who loves cheese) for D&D4:
1st level minion human with the following stats [list statblock it took me about 15 mins to 1/2 hour to write up].

Why is the 3e stat block "not ENTIRELY rules-legal, I guess, but it doesn't need to be" yet the 4e stat block needs to be rules-legal and takes 15-30 minutes? Why isn't the 4e statblock:

Bill the Blacksmith: Level 1, Minion, AC, Reflex, and Will are all 11+level, or 12, and his hammer does 3 damage; if a PC grabs that hammer, it's an improvised weapon as noted before than does 1d4. He has a +5 skill in all the skills that matter to a blacksmith, so none, really (maybe diplomacy, but even that's a stretch); for all other skills, he has a +0.

That shouldn't take 15 minutes.

 

[I'm A Banana]

I'd like that, too. I am not sure I need it (we have plenty of space and minis where we play), but I would like an interesting, tactical combat system without having to do all those chess-game thing. But maybe that's actually impossible, unless you're willing to accept a major headache?

Tactical Movement + No Minis + 4e compatible is something I'm going to be hammering out for a while, I think. 3e was hard, but doable ("you're X feet away from character Z"). 4e's slides and pushes and pulls make this more difficult, because you also need to know how many feet away you are from character Y, feature M, trap #343....

I might end up doing a "replacement system" where I go something like: If the power says "slide," you should do this instead.

But that's for another thread in a few weeks I think.

Stats for role-playing? But I hope we're not talking about Craft & Profession here, right?

I'm open to new approaches, but it should be able to do some of the same stuff that 3e's craft and profession could do, if it needs to.

A possibility is this: Make a list of relevant traits for NPCs (and maybe PCs, too).
Like a list of possible hobbies, non-conflict skills (Craft, Profession).
Whenever such a topic comes up, just roll a d20 and add a +5 bonus. (I you want, factor in level, but really, there is _no_ need for a 30 level wizard to get a +15 bonus on making cheese. Finding a good ability score for the hobby/craft/profession might be nice).
You can do those even for "personality" stuff.

What I'm leaning toward now is a sort of Noncombat Role thing where I give them, say, the role of Sage (which means they are trained in Arcana and History), or the role of Thug (which means training in intimidate and athletics), or the role of Crafter (which means...I dunno yet...) to give each monster some dimension. That'll help a little. I also might give each monster some Skill Challenge info, some Motive keywords...all of those should help me have some more robust rules for handling them.

I'm not looking forward to the amount of tinkering I've gotta do, but it will be a huge boon to my games.

Why is the 3e stat block "not ENTIRELY rules-legal, I guess, but it doesn't need to be" yet the 4e stat block needs to be rules-legal and takes 15-30 minutes?

Because the 3e statblock, while not legal, is more complete than the 4e block, even if the 4e block was entirely legal.

4e's MM and DMG doesn't give me the information I need to run encounters with NPC's and monsters, because my group and my style can't predict what silo they're going to be used for. It's lacking info. I understand why, but I need that info. I'm not excited about manually adding it back in, hence the thread, which has clarified what I might actually need to add in a little, even if it hasn't shown me a system that can add it back in for me.

 

[Scribble]

If you start out with the intention of having the system not work, it most likely won't work.

People have given you the system but you keep ignoring it for some reason? (and in some cases changing what you're asking.)

 

[I'm A Banana]

If you start out with the intention of having the system not work, it most likely won't work.

Right, well, that's what I said in the OP. The system doesn't work for me, help me make something that does! Fortunately, it has been a productive thread (though not as productive as my starry dreams would want. ).

People have given you the system but you keep ignoring it for some reason? (and in some cases changing what you're asking.)

I've been saying this alot, so I'll say it again.

Unless I'm missing something, the 4e system for NPC and monster design, and thus, by extension, the Monster Manual, don't give me all that I need to run a game at my table. I understand why, and I accept that I am a dirty little deviant who will do horrible and unspeakable things to 4e in the name of science and progress, things that would make sailors blush and soldiers weak in the knees, I'm sure, but 4e, at my table, will be a better game for it.

I've been looking for help to fix one of my problems with 4e.

Saying "4e does it perfectly! Look at the rules!" leads me to say "I have looked at the rules. This is why I don't think it works perfectly for me. Got anything else?"

That has been pretty productive because I've been able to narrow my focus on the problem to a lack of (a) NPC stats for mundanes, (b) noncombat information for monsters, and, to a lesser extent, (c) robust rules for handling allies.

Given enough time and effort I can solve those problems, I was just hoping that the ENWorld knowledge base could make my job a little easier. It absolutely helped me clarify my problems, so that's something.

 

[jmucchiello]

Because the 3e statblock, while not legal, is more complete than the 4e block, even if the 4e block was entirely legal.

What detail of the 3e block is not mirrored in the 4e block I listed from Henry?