"My Character Would Know That"

[Reynard]

Bad plans are part of the game and part of the fun.

I'm not sure that is true when the "bad plan" is based on a fundamental misread of a situation or a disconnect between how the GM and players see the situation.

 

[TiQuinn]

One place where this stuff becomes apparent is when "expert" players and GMs clash. I was an infantryman in the Army many moons ago, for example, so I feel like a know a thing or two about long marches, digging foxholes and camping in fetid swamps (of Georgia). The problem occurs if my "knowledge" (it was a long time ago and my experiences were what they were, not necessarily universal) conflicts with the knowledge, experiences, or assumption of the other party, or the rules of the game.

The thing is that the issue is usually when the player thinks that they have reduced their risk of something bad happening to zero because they've taken care of every possibility. Then it comes down to system - is this a game where the player can sway the probability of something happening by describing what they do, or is it down to an ability check like survival? You may be an expert on survival in the wilderness but you just rolled a 1. Does the fact that you just told me that you handled every eventuality override that bad roll? I would say no - and that's real life as well. Your best laid plans got smacked in the face by reality.

 

[Reynard]

The thing is that the issue is usually when the player thinks that they have reduced their risk of something bad happening to zero because they've taken care of every possibility. Then it comes down to system - is this a game where the player can sway the probability of something happening by describing what they do, or is it down to an ability check like survival? You may be an expert on survival in the wilderness but you just rolled a 1. Does the fact that you just told me that you handled every eventuality override that bad roll? I would say no - and that's real life as well. Your best laid plans got smacked in the face by reality.

Sure. Stuff happens. I am talking more about something like "You just walked 12 miles carrying full gear in the summer heat. You need to rest 8 hours before you can dig in."

No, no I do not.

 

[TaranTheWanderer]

This scene from The Gamers movie illustrates another example

This was my first thought.


Some DMs are hand-wavey and just assume that, if you have the background, you know stuff. Others are the opposite:

I was in a game where we had to take the McGuffin someplace important. 3 sessions in, the PC takes it out of his bag to hand it to the monks or whatever. The player says, "Oh, crap, looks like I didn't put it on my character sheet."

The DM says,
"Oh well, I guess you don't have it then."

Player: "But we've been travelling for days and the whole goal was to deliver it. Surely my character would have made sure he had it."

GM: "I guess he didn't"

 

[billd91]

Side note; I had this happen in a Call of Cthulhu game. My investigator was originally from England and game started in New York. The investigators ended up taking a steamer across the pond. Upon arrival, one of the investigators had a revolver and caught hell at customs. The GM essentially said the players were stupid for not knowing this was not allowed in 1920's London. I pointed out my character being from there originally surely would have known this, but to no avail. At this point the GM was strongly suggesting to us that this particular game was not only going to be skill play focused, but historical skill play as well. So, the answer varies it seems for different types of players/GMs. YMMV

Hmmm, sounds like it could be Masks of You-Know-Who?
For a case like this, the Keeper deserves pushback, maybe even shunning. While it's great to have players so interested in the setting that they do some research, they can't research and know everything that might come up in the scenario and it's ridiculous to expect it. And I'd even bet the Keeper didn't know that info until the campaign materials covered it (which the most recent Masks version does and more... in considerable detail).

 

[TiQuinn]

Sure. Stuff happens. I am talking more about something like "You just walked 12 miles carrying full gear in the summer heat. You need to rest 8 hours before you can dig in."

No, no I do not.

As a GM, I wouldn't want to run that kind of a simulationist game. Your knowledge of rucking through the environment is not much different from someone trying to explain why physics should allow them to accomplish something automatically, and at some point, the GM loses. They cannot be an expert in everything, and their lack of precision or knowledge shouldn't be held against them. Whether they said "12 miles" or "many miles", the point is that it's been a long, hard day of marching, and you've gotta rest.

 

[Reynard]

As a GM, I wouldn't want to run that kind of a simulationist game. Your knowledge of rucking through the environment is not much different from someone trying to explain why physics should allow them to accomplish something automatically, and at some point, the GM loses. They cannot be an expert in everything, and their lack of precision or knowledge shouldn't be held against them. Whether they said "12 miles" or "many miles", the point is that it's been a long, hard day of marching, and you've gotta rest.

This is a perfect illustration of the disconnect I am talking about. Thanks!

Let's say instead of "you need 8 hours rest before you dig in" it is "you are fatigued on arrival" to give it some system teeth. There are a few things potentially going on. one is that the GM does not have experience with that kind of effort and so assumes it is going to result in a level of fatigue. Alternately, the system just says that "marching X distance at X speed results in fatigue." The latter is fine. That is the rules of the game. The former should result in a brief discussion between the player and GM. Of course, the GM has the final say, but if this had been known beforehand the players might have made a different choice (taking longer to get there, expending some resource to avoid fatigue, or something).

 

[Bagpuss]

If I expect the PC to know something, I’ll remind the player of it and they can decide whether to change their plan or not.

I am not changing the world to match the player’s misconceptions.

Agreed but if something hasn't yet been established in my world, then I'm happy for a player who's character is the expert to suggest something and we go with that.

 

[TiQuinn]

This is a perfect illustration of the disconnect I am talking about. Thanks!

Let's say instead of "you need 8 hours rest before you dig in" it is "you are fatigued on arrival" to give it some system teeth. There are a few things potentially going on. one is that the GM does not have experience with that kind of effort and so assumes it is going to result in a level of fatigue. Alternately, the system just says that "marching X distance at X speed results in fatigue." The latter is fine. That is the rules of the game. The former should result in a brief discussion between the player and GM. Of course, the GM has the final say, but if this had been known beforehand the players might have made a different choice (taking longer to get there, expending some resource to avoid fatigue, or something).

Yeah, so I think this is a fairly common GM trap that they fall into. The way I think of it is if the GM thinks that a course of action that the party is taking on is going to impose some sort of penalty, don't surprise the party after the choice is made with the result of that penalty. Give them the choice upfront.

To follow on your example, it's better to say at the start, "The route to the dungeon entrance is through some really overgrown brush and swamp and whatever trail that used to be there is long taken over by the elements. Do you want to take your time or do you want to get there quickly? Pushing yourself quick will make you fatigued unless you have some alternatives..."

 

[Reynard]

Yeah, so I think this is a fairly common GM trap that they fall into. The way I think of it is if the GM thinks that a course of action that the party is taking on is going to impose some sort of penalty, don't surprise the party after the choice is made with the result of that penalty. Give them the choice upfront.

To follow on your example, it's better to say at the start, "The route to the dungeon entrance is through some really overgrown brush and swamp and whatever trail that used to be there is long taken over by the elements. Do you want to take your time or do you want to get there quickly? Pushing yourself quick will make you fatigued unless you have some alternatives..."

Agreed. It is when the different sides are assuming different things without saying them that you run into trouble.