D&D 3E/3.5 My DM wants to nerf 3.5 Psionics, help me convince him otherwise :)
- Thread starter rekash
- Start date
Falling Icicle
Adventurer
rekash said:
Psions have alot of drawbacks that your DM is overlooking. First, Psions are Power Point hogs. While a Sorcerer's or Wizard's spells scale in power for free, Psions actually have to pay for it. For example, a 10th level Sorcerer casting Fireball does 10d6 damage, while a 10th level Psion casting a 3rd level power would only do 5d6, unless he was willing to pay an extra 5 power points for it! This is an enormous drawback for Psionic characters that cannot be understated.
Granted, Psions have even more flexibility than Sorcerers, but in order to fully utilize their potential, they must rapidly burn up their power point reserves. Sorcerers have a great deal more staying power. If you were to convert a Sorcerer's spells per day into the equivelent Power points, without even taking into consideration their free scaling of damage and effect, you will find the Sorcerer and Wizard both have an enormous advantage in this area. Psions can shoot off more high level effects than Sorcerers or Wizards can, but then they quickly find themselves out of power. Sorcerers, on the other hand, are the DnD spellcasting equivalent of the Energizer bunny, they keep going and going and going... In all my years of playing 3rd edition, I have never, ever, so much as once, seen a Sorcerer completely run out of spells after 5th level. Not once.
A Psions advantage is in flexibility, whereas Sorcerers and Wizards are more efficient. Another thing to keep in mind, is there are many, many more spells available to Sor/Wiz than Psions. And Arcane spells tend to be quite powerful, too. Psions are also forced to specialize in a Discipline, and their selection of powers is very limited even compared to a specialist Wizard.
As far as casting in armor, which alot of people bring up as an "imbalance," I must point out that Divine spellcasters have this advantage too. Components are another thing where Psions have an edge, but in my years of playing I have rarely ever had a problem with a magic user and components. Just don't get grappled, or have a silent dimension door or teleport handy in case you do, and you're fine. Most of the time components are not a big deal. Expensive material components are something that Psions don't have to deal with, but they tend to have experience costs instead. So it comes down to $ vs exp. I'm not sure which is worse, honestly.
Metamagics are another interesting thing to compare. Psions have to expend their focus to use any metamapsionic feat. This is an enormous disadvantage. For one, it means they lose access to some of their other abilities that only work while you have focus (such as Up the Walls), and it also means they have to spend a Full Round action to regain their focus. Additionally, it makes it so that a Psionic character can only use one Metapsionic feat on a spell. Whereas a Sorcerer or Wizard of sufficient level can stack multiple metamagics on a spell, Psions are limited to one per casting, and as I said, must find the time to spend a full round action before they can buff another power. Yes, Psions can get a feat to make this a move action, but that's one feat that could have been spent on something else.
Another thing to keep in mind is that just being a Psionic character makes you vulnerable to alot of things that other classes never have to deal with. The Psionic book is full of feats, weapons, and powers designed to screw over Psionic characters exclusively. You rarely ever see something designed to hurt Mages or Clerics, on the other hand. And since your sadist DM has designed a world where everyone hunts Psionic characters, I'm sure these things would be very common in his campaign.
In short, Psions tend to be very good at what they do, but they have a much smaller niche than spellcasters. They are very, very specialized, and while they can equal or even exceed spellcasters in their chosen specialy, they simply do not have the vast library of powers and resources available to spellcasters. They seem to be very well balanced to me, and I think that nerfing them further would be nothing short of insanity. They have plenty of disadvantages already!
Falling Icicle
Adventurer
rekash said:
ROFL. Maybe your DM should actually familiarize himself with the rules before he starts making "balance" changes in his campaign.
Falling Icicle
Thanks much for the detailed explanation! I actually took your response and e-mailed it to him. I know he's going to argue the point about grappling and the availability of spells for wizards. He's made it difficult for wizards to obtain spells, and I know he's going to bring up that fact when compairing Wizards to Psions, stating that Psions are more powerful than Wizards because it's reasonably difficult for Wizards to obtain new spells.
Thank you again for the post. If you have any other thoughts, I'd love to hear them
support@exilera.com
Thanks much for the detailed explanation! I actually took your response and e-mailed it to him. I know he's going to argue the point about grappling and the availability of spells for wizards. He's made it difficult for wizards to obtain spells, and I know he's going to bring up that fact when compairing Wizards to Psions, stating that Psions are more powerful than Wizards because it's reasonably difficult for Wizards to obtain new spells.
Thank you again for the post. If you have any other thoughts, I'd love to hear them
support@exilera.com
reiella
Explorer
Flavor restriction aside (Psionic Feats).
#1 I don't really get, what do you mean here? The DCs are the same for Psion versus Wizard, or do you mean introduce the same sort of components to manifesting powers?
#2 rules out a Psion real quick though. It's just not worth it then.
#3 is a nice flavor item I like, but would need to be balanced with the other spellcasters (although I like the idea of slow recovery of spell-slots too).
#4 Sounds like just an issue with the Nomad flavor. But simple enough, do not play a Nomad in that game, or anything approaching one.
#5 Erm, Again flat out Do Not Play Psion in that world.
Now, if you still want to play a psionic character in that world, I'd suggest going with a Psionic non-manifester (prolly a Soulblade for something easy and cheasy), and focus on Non-Psionic Feat chains. From the tidbits you've said, I suspect he tries to run a low-magic campaign, and in those the Soulblade can shine greatly given his relative independance of magic weaponry.
Fun sidenote, Psions wouldn't be much of PP hogs if they can't augment their powers... Jebus, ouch.
#1 I don't really get, what do you mean here? The DCs are the same for Psion versus Wizard, or do you mean introduce the same sort of components to manifesting powers?
#2 rules out a Psion real quick though. It's just not worth it then.
#3 is a nice flavor item I like, but would need to be balanced with the other spellcasters (although I like the idea of slow recovery of spell-slots too).
#4 Sounds like just an issue with the Nomad flavor. But simple enough, do not play a Nomad in that game, or anything approaching one.
#5 Erm, Again flat out Do Not Play Psion in that world.
Now, if you still want to play a psionic character in that world, I'd suggest going with a Psionic non-manifester (prolly a Soulblade for something easy and cheasy), and focus on Non-Psionic Feat chains. From the tidbits you've said, I suspect he tries to run a low-magic campaign, and in those the Soulblade can shine greatly given his relative independance of magic weaponry.
Fun sidenote, Psions wouldn't be much of PP hogs if they can't augment their powers... Jebus, ouch.
The Souljourner
First Post
Tell him he should let you try it out as written in the books, and if it turns out to be too powerful in game, then you can change things down the line. There's really no better way to test if something is broken than to actually play with it.
When the Mystic Theurge came out, everyone said it was way overpowered.... now it's generally accepted to actually be a little under powered. I have real, personal gaming experience with a Mystic Theurge, and I can tell you, it's true.
Psions in 3.0 SUCKED. Hardcore. In 3.5 they look like they would actually be fun and balanced.
I'm sure that if you play a Psion and he sees how *not* overpowered they are, he'll be fine with the book as written.
The changes he has proposed make the Psion 100% unplayable. Removing augmentation of powers and reducing bonus power points are the two really big ones. Making you take two days to get your power points back is also ridiculous. What, it's ok for every other casting class to get them back in 24 hour but not the Psion? Stupid.
And yes, Sorcerers don't have to memorize spells. That's the whole point of being a sorcerer. How new is your DM to third edition? If he's so new he doesn't know how Sorcerers work, what makes him think he knows enough to even determine that psions are unbalanced, let alone how to balance them?
-The Souljourner
When the Mystic Theurge came out, everyone said it was way overpowered.... now it's generally accepted to actually be a little under powered. I have real, personal gaming experience with a Mystic Theurge, and I can tell you, it's true.
Psions in 3.0 SUCKED. Hardcore. In 3.5 they look like they would actually be fun and balanced.
I'm sure that if you play a Psion and he sees how *not* overpowered they are, he'll be fine with the book as written.
The changes he has proposed make the Psion 100% unplayable. Removing augmentation of powers and reducing bonus power points are the two really big ones. Making you take two days to get your power points back is also ridiculous. What, it's ok for every other casting class to get them back in 24 hour but not the Psion? Stupid.
And yes, Sorcerers don't have to memorize spells. That's the whole point of being a sorcerer. How new is your DM to third edition? If he's so new he doesn't know how Sorcerers work, what makes him think he knows enough to even determine that psions are unbalanced, let alone how to balance them?
-The Souljourner
Piratecat
Sesquipedalian
If you need to, rekash, consider giving a little bit on your end. Offer to select a type of energy for any energy powers now, at 1st level, and stick with it throughout the game instead of using the flexibility of choosing on the spot. It's a significant disadvantage, one that limtis your combat flexibility considerably, but it's still easy to have a fun character even with this limitation. It may be a good place to meet in the middle if a compromise seems possible.
