D&D 4E My First 4E Game: Disappointing. Yours? (UPDATED with player feedback)

[Dr. Strangemonkey]

This was the same experience I had. My characters saw trying out 4e not from a "another system to try out, interesting" perspective, but from a "wait, this means we have to wait another week before we play your game again? Our characters are pre-made? *sigh*"

They were polite enough to give it a try, but two of them quit early...

I chose to take it as a compliment about my current campaign - as the OP probably should - even if it was hard to have so much enthusiasm for running 4e and have them not mirror it.

It's worth noting that the group I had such a positive experience with got together specifically to play the demo (and party) so even though I had played with all of the experienced players in the past there was no past history or continuity to work around.

Seriously, how are you supposed to avoid a boardgame feel when you are playing for one evening?

 

[Spatula]

I couldn't give a definitive opinion because I tend not to play computer games. But from what I've played, I'll have to say the whole debate strikes me as a chicken-before-the-egg situation.

I mean, is 4e more like an MMORPG because the "bosses" get tougher to kill when they get close to dying?

Maybe. But, then again, there was this cat monster in 2e that got bigger and bigger everytime it fell to 0 hps until it reached really freakin' big and the PCs finally killed. And then Dragonlance had dragonmen who would explode when they were killed. So, is it a situation of 4e borrowing from WoW or a situation of WoW and other videogames expanding on something in TRPGs, running with it and then having that come back to the table after so many years.

From my experience, pretty much everything about the "4e =/= WoW" debate falls into this realm. There's very little that these CRPGs are doing (game system-wise) that doesn't take a nod to tabletop games in some form. So is it that TRPGs are becoming like MMOs or have MMOs just been emulating TRPGs all this time?

Frankly, I don't know and I really don't care. A good idea is a good idea. I don't care if the spell system was ripped whole-hog out of Mahjong and the Healing Surges work like passing Go in Monopoly. As long as it's fun.

I pretty much view the "4e == WoW" viewpoint espoused by CNName's players as just a big lark and a distraction from the real issue of what is and isn't better about 4e. Trying to point out how 4e is similar to WoW is a non-issue. Of course it is. But the greater issue is that WoW was like D&D first. And the circle goes on and on...

After that's recognized, the whole issue becomes pretty pointless (in my eyes).

The "4e is WoW" thing is just an update of the "X is a videogame" charge, which was used against 3e quite a bit. Since 3e's release, Warcraft has risen to the top as the fantasy videogame to hate / dismiss, for those who are into that sort of thing. There never was an actual point; it's just a label meant to reduce and dismiss something by likening it to a "lesser" type of game.

 

[WhatGravitas]

It's probably my fault; I talk about the ups and downs of 4E all the time. Maybe I just need to drop the subject and let them develop a curiosity on their own. If that never comes to pass, then so be it...there's always Diablo2.

After reading your players' feedback: I think it's also because you're the DM. I know that too - as a DM, you usually have more investment into the game, while many players rather "just want to play" - which is why selling new systems is hard. Imagine you were excited about Savage Worlds, GURPS, Exalted, or Spirit of the Century. Doing a demo game would be just as hard - don't forget: Due to ENWorld, 4E feels more natural to you. To others, it will rather feel like another RPG.

Which is why I couldn't sell Savage Worlds to my groups. But perhaps 4E - but I've learned!

Cheers, LT.

 

[drjones]

My group wasn't terribly impressed with the Wizard, either.

Tell that to my group. Dang wizard got an acid arrow on the big baddie wizard and 3 archers around him. I had to fudge his hp a few points or he would have dropped from the continuing damage before he got to cast a single spell.

I think folks are used to wizzies having more buttons to hit than any other class. Now that everyone has more buttons it feels like a downgrade but that will pass.

Our best guy was the warlock really, they were incredulous at his damage output till they saw how squishy he was.

 

[smathis]

Which is why I couldn't sell Savage Worlds to my groups. But perhaps 4E - but I've learned!

Cheers, LT.

Don't feel bad. I couldn't sell Savage Worlds to my group back in Florida either. They balked at the very idea. Called it a "war game".

Now, I hear they play it (and Mutants & Masterminds) almost exclusively. Both games I tried to get them hooked on. Both games that they balked at.

But try and bring up that I was the first one to bring these games into the group and crankiness will ensue.

Maybe not all groups are like this. But in my experience, what a group plays is generally determined by the Silverbacks. If you're not one of them, then about the best you can hope for is having a working knowledge of the rules before your group switches.

Case in point. I tried getting that group to play M&M 1st ed. the week after it came out. The group eventually gave me a shot at it and one of the guys who's cranky enough to drive the group in his direction immediately tanked up on Toughness and spent the rest of the night attempting to break the system with stuff he'd obviously read on internet forums -- judging that he was attempting to exploit weaknesses in the system without having cracked a book.

About a month later, I got a copy of M&M and gave it to one of the other Silverbacks. We were playing it within three weeks and, to my knowledge, they're still playing it -- with no intention of moving to 2e.

No one -- not even the guy I bought the book for -- owns up to my efforts to get the group to try it out in the first place.

Again, maybe not all groups are like this. But I've been in a LOT of groups in states all over the country and I've found that a lot of times getting a group to try something new depends more on where you stand in the food chain than the game you're wanting to play.

Call it Group Politics. Call it Social Dynamics. But it's all about respect.

Just like Aretha Franklin says.

 

[Olfactatron]

I've run a couple of games with the PHB lite rules and I must say they've been very successful. The first game I ran was a series of encounters only. There were four players each using one of the pre-gen characters. What impressed me most about 4e as we've seen it is that I designed and ran 5 combat encounters in the space of 3 hours including one encounter against the black dragon. That alone sold me on 4e. There's no way I could have done that in 3rd edition. GMing the monsters was easy and the players found the rules easy to understand and, more importantly, fun.

I haven't seen this brought up yet, but it should be pointed out that the people who believe 4e heavily relembles WoW do have a point. Because WoW is based on D&D. A bunch of characters of varying races and abilities go into a dungeon to accomplish a quest by killing a major baddy and taking his stuff. It's essentially the same game. If it's true that D&D is emulating some of the mechanics of WoW I don't see how it's a bad thing. Cribbing from the most succesful computer game of all time that is, in many significant ways, based on earlier editions of the game you're designing just seems like a no-brainer.

 

[SteveC]

As a side note, we weren't given quickplay rules in order to run the games at D&D Experience. We were given the entire combat chapter of the PHB. I doubt they want to clean that up and release it to anyone.

That's really interesting. The GM in one of my games gave that book out to us to help him look up some conditions a couple of times, and there was a lot of stuff in it that still looked rough around the edges mechanics wise. Still, I can see why they wouldn't want to give that out, .

However, a quick 8-10 page quickstart guide would be lightyears ahead of what we have now. As much as this whole viral marketing thing is working for them, I think it's also creating a fair number of gamers who won't be playing because they have a faulty impression of what the game is.

Just my $.02.

--Steve

 

[Ahglock]

I'm getting multiple sets of the core 3 rules and sadly enough due to pre-conceived notions i don't know if it will be worth playing. One of my players will be a big spoiler, basically anything after the rules compendium is bad to him.

There are plenty of things I did not like in pretty much every edition so far, and 4e won't be any exception I'm sure, but i had fun playing and running them all.

If the spoiler wasn't the person whose house we gamed at and my only solid friend in the area i'd just not invite him, but as is I'm playing in his garage and hanging out with him while playing with his kids all day before the game so um he is in. I hope the one bad apple wont spoil the bunch to at least giving it an honest shake and my experience is not as bad as your first one.

I think I am going to have to instate a no lap-top rule though, in my current games I am getting sick of the internet browsing from one of my players, if they get lan gaming in there head I'm doomed.

 

[Shimrath]

Well, sort of. I haven't spoken to them, but I've e-mailed and heard back from them. After the game, and after I had given myself a chance to cool down about it (you know, gotten some sleep, had a good breakfast, that sort of thing), I hammered out an e-mail and sent it BCC to the guys. It went something like this:

"So about last night. Diablo2 was awesome as always, but I was really in the mood for some tabletop gaming. I got the feeling that you weren't really getting into the game I had prepared, though. I'm still a bit of a newcomer to this gaming group, and I've only been DMing with you guys for three games now...I'd love to get some feedback.

And if you ever pull out your laptop at my game table again, I will CUT you."

(Okay, I really didn't include that last line. I typed it, but I backspaced over it before I clicked "send.")

The first guy (let's call him Lock) replied, "you were doing fine and it was an interesting adventure setup and all but it just started to feel old you know? it would have been fine i guess if we had used our own characters instead of some sample ones but i know that they might not have worked with the new game you wanted to try. maybe next time we can roll up our own characters using the new rules it might be more fun that way." (Sorry, but Lock is apparently allergic to capitalization.)

The second guy (Stock, we shall call him) wrote, "It wasn't you, man, I think it was just the new game you brought. I had worked all day on my research paper, and I didn't feel much like having to learn something ELSE when I was trying to relax lol. I just didn't want to have to think that much. It was just a lot easier to just turn on diablo and click some goblins to death. will we get back to our regular game next week? I really like the stormlord prestige class in complete divine, do you think I can build one?"

Barrel (the third guy) didn't reply until late last night. "Yeah, sorry about that. You are doign fine as a dm and everyone looks forward to the games, which is something that hasn't happened in more than a year. Our last dm wasn't nearly as much of a hard ass as you are about attacks of opportunity (j/k) but he was always late and never really put any time into his adventures either. I think we were all just bummed that we wouldn't be continuing the game we started a few weeks ago and the new game felt like cheap imitation. Totally not your fault. I have a question, can we use some of the feats in Complete Warrior?" (he goes on to ask about certain feats for his elf monk.)

So that's that. From what I can tell, they weren't personally offended by 4E on principle; they were just in the mood for something different. I don't know what that means for the 4E rules system as a whole, or its appeal to your average gaming group, but there it is.

Wow.

Given only the information presented in the original post, i would have advised against playing games with these guys again at all. After reading their responses to your email, i'd say it sounds like you're running a good game with some good players.

Thanks again for the thread.

 

[small pumpkin man]

Wow.

Given only the information presented in the original post, i would have advised against playing games with these guys again at all. After reading their responses to your email, i'd say it sounds like you're running a good game with some good players.

Thanks again for the thread.

The internet is like that.

Or perhaps more accurately, secondary sources are like that.