My Forge of Fury players-stay out!!
- Thread starter Asmo
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Olgar Shiverstone
Legend
My group near-TPK'd in the Forge too. They survived the roper (bribing it with the dead body of a PC, LOL), and entered the Forge area itself. I'd replaced the duergar with drow (adjusting class levels to keep the CRs the same). The heroes split the party, engaging some of the undead while allowing the drow to retreat, reinforce, and return. Only one party member survived.
The replacement party was for some reason rather reluctant to accompany the lone survivor back to the Forge to recover his companions' bodies; they never did get to fight the dragon.
The replacement party was for some reason rather reluctant to accompany the lone survivor back to the Forge to recover his companions' bodies; they never did get to fight the dragon.
Hypersmurf
Moderatarrrrh...
Heh. Our sorcerer wandered off by himself at one point - a couple of us got washed down the river, another couple were picking a lock somewhere, and the sorcerer checked out another door.
The rest of us eventually all made it back to the same place, and went looking for him. We opened the door he'd gone through.
His magic rapier was sitting on the floor in the middle of the room. All by itself. And the floor around it looked sort of... slick.
"No way," we decided, and closed the door.
... and the sorcerer's player started rolling 4d6...
-Hyp.
The rest of us eventually all made it back to the same place, and went looking for him. We opened the door he'd gone through.
His magic rapier was sitting on the floor in the middle of the room. All by itself. And the floor around it looked sort of... slick.
"No way," we decided, and closed the door.
... and the sorcerer's player started rolling 4d6...
-Hyp.
Has anyone actually beaten the dragon encounter as written, in a real game? To me it looks like a near-certain TPK. The dragon never has any reason to come close enough for melee, and a party of the suggested level doesn't have enough spells to kill it from range. As long as the DM uses halfway intelligent tactics, I don't see any way for the dragon to lose.
Maybe if one of the PCs were a munchkin archer with Evasion, he could survive the breath weapon long enough to plink the dragon to death. I wouldn't bet my campaign on it, though.
Maybe if one of the PCs were a munchkin archer with Evasion, he could survive the breath weapon long enough to plink the dragon to death. I wouldn't bet my campaign on it, though.
Hypersmurf
Moderatarrrrh...
AuraSeer said:
Well...
We won, with several characters dropped into the heavy negatives, and it was an enjoyable session.
None of the other players were particularly heavy rules buffs, so I'm not sure if they noticed. But I caught the DM aside after the session.
"You took that fight pretty easy on us, huh?"
"Oh yeah."
BADD would be incensed
But I understand the thinking. It's fun pushing a party to the limit. TPKs aren't really all that fun.I've run Big U in RttToEE against two parties now. I've killed characters with him, but I didn't TPK. And if you run him no-holds-barred against 4th level characters, they all die. So I run him as the arrogant, I-don't-need-a-breath-weapon-to-deal-with-these-puny-manlings type, until he starts taking enough damage to get worried...
-Hyp.
The party would have been wiped out if the dragon had the inclination to be careful. I played her as an arrogant cocky bastard who as of yet never had faced any serious opposition. So she took some unnecesary risks by facing the party partially on land. Even then it was a very heavy fight with two PCs on the brink of death. Then fighter scored a very luck crit and the unconscious dragon floated downstream where her corpse was later devourer by some dire lions (the PCs found the corpse and the tracks it caused them to leave the area in a real hurry).
As for the ooze - I had it eat its way through a door in another adventure and still the PC attacked it with his Durgeddin +2 weapon. To the players credit he proceeded with it even when the other players shouted not to, but he rightfully pointed out that their characters where all asleep. Since then that barbarian is very careful around moving puddles of clear liquid
As for the ooze - I had it eat its way through a door in another adventure and still the PC attacked it with his Durgeddin +2 weapon. To the players credit he proceeded with it even when the other players shouted not to, but he rightfully pointed out that their characters where all asleep. Since then that barbarian is very careful around moving puddles of clear liquid
Li Shenron
Legend
It's not sure yet if I am DMing again soon, but if I am then I was considering exactly this adventure (I would have 5 PCs of level 3).
I definitely take away the Roper out, and downgrade the dragon a bit, maybe 1 age category, or I'll just give her worse stats or not appropriately prepared spells. I didn't notice that the Gray Ooze is so scary, maybe I'll change it as well with something I prefer (too easy how it can melt magic items, what magic is an item if the first stinkin' puddin' can eat it in 1 round?
).
I don't think your players have been so fool as you say when they fell victim to these monsters. I read the adventure's notes about how the Roper is difficult and it should teach players that sometimes it's better to run away rather than fighting. Well I think THAT's stupid. I would understand if it was the dragon, but how many players in the world know what a Roper is and its CR? My players could never guess if they haven't read the MM! If they get TPKed by a stalagmite of dung, they'll be afterwards scared every single time they encounter a new monster. I say this because when long ago we played 1ed, a character got killed by the 1st trap we met at the dungeon entrance. Because of this, everyone started playing so carefully not to step on the smallest crumb on the floor and taking half an hour every time they had to open another door with precautions... I think we walked not more than 4-5 rooms in 2 evenings.
I definitely take away the Roper out, and downgrade the dragon a bit, maybe 1 age category, or I'll just give her worse stats or not appropriately prepared spells. I didn't notice that the Gray Ooze is so scary, maybe I'll change it as well with something I prefer (too easy how it can melt magic items, what magic is an item if the first stinkin' puddin' can eat it in 1 round?
).I don't think your players have been so fool as you say when they fell victim to these monsters. I read the adventure's notes about how the Roper is difficult and it should teach players that sometimes it's better to run away rather than fighting. Well I think THAT's stupid. I would understand if it was the dragon, but how many players in the world know what a Roper is and its CR? My players could never guess if they haven't read the MM! If they get TPKed by a stalagmite of dung, they'll be afterwards scared every single time they encounter a new monster. I say this because when long ago we played 1ed, a character got killed by the 1st trap we met at the dungeon entrance. Because of this, everyone started playing so carefully not to step on the smallest crumb on the floor and taking half an hour every time they had to open another door with precautions... I think we walked not more than 4-5 rooms in 2 evenings.
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Nightscale
Nightscale's breath weapon is rather puny, IIRC. 4d4 or 6d4 acid damage, I think, with a reflex save. On the other hand, she's terrifying to a 4th level party in melee. When I ran FoF, one of her goals was to bull rush a character in heavy armor off the bridge into the river, but I failed
If you want to make her tough:
- her first attack should be a bull rush from the water into a character on the bridge, back into the water. Even if the character isn't heavily encumbered, they're out-of-sorts in the water. IMC, most PCs have lousy swim scores.
- try to isolate for a full attack on any character, but preferably an unarmoured one. If they look lightly armored, use power attack for 2-4 points.
- once she gets wounded to 50%, she can retreat to the water and hit them with breath attacks, concentrating on anyone throwing offensive spells or good archers.
- once she gets badly wounded, have her flee. Nightscale's young, but she's not stupid, nor is she as arrogant as big U. I had her grab what treasure she could carry and run away. When the group finally went down underwater with some water breathing potions, they were most displeased to find naught but a couple thousand silver pieces
Nightscale's breath weapon is rather puny, IIRC. 4d4 or 6d4 acid damage, I think, with a reflex save. On the other hand, she's terrifying to a 4th level party in melee. When I ran FoF, one of her goals was to bull rush a character in heavy armor off the bridge into the river, but I failed
If you want to make her tough:
- her first attack should be a bull rush from the water into a character on the bridge, back into the water. Even if the character isn't heavily encumbered, they're out-of-sorts in the water. IMC, most PCs have lousy swim scores.
- try to isolate for a full attack on any character, but preferably an unarmoured one. If they look lightly armored, use power attack for 2-4 points.
- once she gets wounded to 50%, she can retreat to the water and hit them with breath attacks, concentrating on anyone throwing offensive spells or good archers.
- once she gets badly wounded, have her flee. Nightscale's young, but she's not stupid, nor is she as arrogant as big U. I had her grab what treasure she could carry and run away. When the group finally went down underwater with some water breathing potions, they were most displeased to find naught but a couple thousand silver pieces
Li Shenron wrote:
"I don't think your players have been so fool as you say when they fell victim to these monsters."
My players are very special. We have been friends for ages and lives in the same small town. Sometimes I DM,some other time a friend does. We have one thing in common:the belief that most things can be settled with violence rather than diplomacy. I was quite surprised how they handled the kobold situation in Sunless Citadel and how they roleplayed their way out of several tricky situations after that, so I was almost sure that finally we had come to a new understanding of the game. This was like the final test:they meet a superior foe that is clearly way to much to handle,everything until the sudden turn of events indicated that they were no match for the roper (even if they never had meet a roper before, they sure knew that it was a superior foe, the party was nearly tpk:ed at the encounter with the bear that was trained by the troglodytes,only 1 player survived that fight). They knew that this was a very dangerous monster, yet they still choose to fight. It was like the players (not the characters) suddenly decided that "we wont take that, be humiliated by a stone monster". I`m just the same:I was involved in a Greyhawk game where we were instructed to negotiate with an old copperdragon who disturbed a big area with livestock. The crucial word here is "negotiate". Filled with illusions of grandeur we charged the dragon, without speaking a single word to the dragon. Not good,only the sorceress survived. I still shiver at the memories,and what a humilation! Yet it continues. Don´t ask me why.I guess it´s hard to pick the right battles and know when to back down.
I should never had used the roper,but now it´s to late.
Asmo
"I don't think your players have been so fool as you say when they fell victim to these monsters."
My players are very special. We have been friends for ages and lives in the same small town. Sometimes I DM,some other time a friend does. We have one thing in common:the belief that most things can be settled with violence rather than diplomacy. I was quite surprised how they handled the kobold situation in Sunless Citadel and how they roleplayed their way out of several tricky situations after that, so I was almost sure that finally we had come to a new understanding of the game. This was like the final test:they meet a superior foe that is clearly way to much to handle,everything until the sudden turn of events indicated that they were no match for the roper (even if they never had meet a roper before, they sure knew that it was a superior foe, the party was nearly tpk:ed at the encounter with the bear that was trained by the troglodytes,only 1 player survived that fight). They knew that this was a very dangerous monster, yet they still choose to fight. It was like the players (not the characters) suddenly decided that "we wont take that, be humiliated by a stone monster". I`m just the same:I was involved in a Greyhawk game where we were instructed to negotiate with an old copperdragon who disturbed a big area with livestock. The crucial word here is "negotiate". Filled with illusions of grandeur we charged the dragon, without speaking a single word to the dragon. Not good,only the sorceress survived. I still shiver at the memories,and what a humilation! Yet it continues. Don´t ask me why.I guess it´s hard to pick the right battles and know when to back down.
I should never had used the roper,but now it´s to late.
Asmo
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Li Shenron
Legend
Asmo said:
Well if you gave them clues about the risk, then you have done your job as DM. I would have allowed at least some Intelligence or Wisdom (or appropriate knowledge if you are playing 3.5) check to notice it would have cost them at least one party member. I would not have been afraid to tell them even the exact CR if the roll would had been succesful. I just don't like to lose PCs even if they make a stupid thing, at least I definitely don't like losing them all
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