My Group, Me, and My Forehead Vein (long/rant)

[Xarlen]

I'm frustrated, and I don't know what to do. I'd like to first say I don't blame my group, at all; they're good, they love my campaign, but I'm at a standstill.

Let me disect stuff. The group is three players, who are very RP centric, been gaming a while, and I'm a relatively new DM (This campaign was my first, lasted over a year). They were not very rules-savvy to 3e, so they're not pulling super combos, powerful weapons, rules-breaking maneuvers, so forth. The most powerful thing they have is a +2 longsword. The wizard is an Illusionist.

The party's dynamics aren't very... average, not very mercenary, but more 'educated'. They don't do stuff for hire, and have done heroics in the past, so I want to avoid repetition. I want to avoid 'Big bad guy doing evil things, go stop him!'.

Saved a city from an evil cult, murder mystery, fetching things for wizards, saving town from a vampire who stalked them, etc. Don't want to repeat myself, in varying forms.

IMC, Raising and Ressurection can't be purchased; it's a dangerous, if not really difficult undertaking. So character death is sorta final. Not only that, but I'm afraid that character death could really mess stuff up, plot wise.

The party is about to hit 10th level. We have a 9th level half-elf illusionist, a 9th level Human cleric of Luck, a 5th level Rogue/1st level Sorceress Half-dragon/elf, and (NPC) A 2nd level ranger/4th level Fighter natural werewolf (party's tank).

The combination thereof makes the party pretty immune to a lot of stuff. Hold person doesn't work on the rogue Or fighter, because they're not humanoid. Both the cleric and wizard have exceptional will saves. The wizard's familiar is a bat (He chose it because he loves bats), makes a lot of illusions/tactics from enemies obsolete, because it can simply see them.

The party has made a cake-walk, accidently, of almost every combat they've got in. Simply, their tactics are sound. The only time they've had a serious trouble was when they got sandwiched between two chuuls on a bridge, and fought 3 carrion crawlers, that nearly ended in a TPK. The only other instances where they've been seriously hurt was simply spellcasters hitting with harsh damage spells.

So, my problem is this: 1) I don't know how to work a Good Plot, That 2) Involves powerful creatures that will pose a serious problem, while 3) Not Fully killing the party right out.

I hate random encounters, and at this point, I think they're getting too far that just a random CR 10 creature is really hard to believe, in a sense of belief.

So, I don't know what to do, any more. I'm stuck. The party isn't through with their current adventure, which is the Murder Mystery. I generally plan stuff well in advance, and before now, I've always had stuff in mind, but now, I'm struggling for what's next. I have something that I'm cooking, but still...

They love my campaign, in that they feel I'm a good DM, and they're getting all they want. But again, I'm just... At a loss, at a full block, on what to DO. I still want to keep the campaign, keep it alive, but...

I know I'm babbling, and really, I also needed to simply Get This Off My Chest. Perhaps I'm just really frustrated with a lot of little things, and this has risen to the top as a serious problem, when it's only a molehill. It feels it, however.

So, I ask you, Enworld, what do you think?

 

[Vaxalon]

Don't threaten the party.

Threaten things that they value. Perhaps an illusionist is creating an undeserved bad reputation for them. Perhaps a family home is sliding into the sea.

Give them things TO value. Have the king give them a grant of land to develop.

 

[Xarlen]

I'll also add that the campaign, at this point, is city-spesific, but the players really want to head Outward, and just get out of this city, and explore.

I also want to avoid dungeon crawls.

 

[ForceUser]

You have to challenge them. You must, or they'll get bored. There are two kinds of challenges: things that challenge the characters and things that challenge the players. A monster's CR and an encounter's ECL are good barometers of what challenges a character, and these things grow over time as they become more powerful. However, things that challenge your players task them regardless of character level. These sorts of challenges involve puzzles, traps, conundrums, mysteries, etc. In short, things that make them think.

Your typical D&D game is, at its core, a simple formula. The player characters are the heroes and they fight villains. If you don't want to do that, you've already significantly altered the core game dynamic. What you need to do is ask yourself what your goal is as DM. Do you want to run a long term campaign with overarching, interwoven plots? Do you want to run a series of short adventures linked together only by the actions of the PCs themselves? Or do you just want to ensure your players have a good time on a per-session basis?

It sounds to me like you have a group of brainiacs, or at least cautious players chock-full of common sense. Maybe they'd enjoy more games where they were presented with situations where the outcomes didn't depend on die rolls. Think along the lines of political encounters or cosmic puzzles, or age-old mysteries. You could also consider coming right out and asking them - "What do you guys prefer?" - and go from there.

Alternately, if they are careful brainiacs, present them with plots and situations that can only be resolved by bold heroic actions. Give them no-win situations and let them role-play the angst involved.

Finally, Don't be afraid to kill off player characters! Sometimes, death just happens. It's the nature of adventuring and is an important part of any campaign. Death, by its very nature, is a rich resource for drama and roleplaying, even moreso in a setting where resurrections are rare. Play up to that. I'd say that when you're designing combat encounters, don't hold back. Balance it to their group CR, and maybe even a little higher from time to time if they are as tactically smart as you suggest. Most importantly, let the dice fall where they may. Don't pull your punches! If your players figure out that you're going easy on them to prevent them from dying, it'll ruin their fun. It's exciting to know that you're risking your character's life, and it's no fun at all when you realize that no matter what you do, you've got story immunity and you can't die.

Hope that helps.

 

[Kilmore]

One thing I would suggest is creating a group of rival adventurers who are going after many of the same things that your party is. This group doesn't have to be evil or anything, they just want the same things the party does, and they are unwilling or unable to share. The rivalry doesn't have to be lethal... in fact, you might stress that this group is responsible for a lot of good in the world. They are just going to come into conflict with the party over their greater goals.

 

[Pielorinho]

I agree that sometimes frontal challenges aren't the best. Consider having an osyluth-demon as an enemy:
-It can create illusions
-It can fly
-It can teleport away
-It can plant suggestions (I think -- the SRD is being wonky right now)
-It's very difficult to hit with magic or with weaponry

So it can kill people and create illusions of a werewolf running away, wearing a certain PC's clothes. It can disguise itself as a PC and make vile threats against the town guard. It can go to the cemetery, looking like the party cleric, and raise an army of zombies, and send them against the tavern where the cleric just gambled away a small fortune. (Or at least, someone who LOOKED like the cleric gambled away a small fortune). It can suggest to the party tank that the party wizard is probably the demon in disguise -- subdue him until you can figure out the truth!

The PCs will hate this. A lot. And that's with a CR8 creature.

One quick note: although the bat may be able to see invisible, illusionary, etc. creatures, that ability shouldn't transfer fully to the party. The bat is gonna be telling the party wizard, "There! There! Don't you see him! To your side!" And the party wizard is gonna be saying, "Where? Where are you talking about? Which side?!" and the bat will say, "Your right! I mean, your left! Which is right and which is left again?"

Once the wizard figures out where Mr. Invisible is, he's gotta get that across to the rest of the party.

And that's when the bat is flying around, using blindsight. If it's doing that, it's just begging to be targeted with some arrows, magic missiles, etc. A safe familiar is gonna be tucked away in the wizard's robes, and when tucked away, it's hardly going to be echolocating its little heart out.

Daniel

 

[Kilmore]

BTW, if your party knows that you are not likely to throw the same stunt at them twice, and you DO throw the same stunt at them twice, it may be even more surprising than the first time.

Natural disasters are good too. Earthquakes... Hurricanes (not just at sea)... tornadoes... volcanic eruptions. They can be challenging at any level, especially when tied in with other adventure ideas. Obviously not to be overused, but if you haven't had one happen yet, you might wanna consider it.

 

[StalkingBlue]

Yeah. I hate block. I used to believe every time I came out of one that it had been the last time.

Here's a seed for a change of pace.

What if they are offered a contract as bodyguards of a celebrity performer? (Perhaps at the recommendation or request of some NPC they already know well.)

They'll get out of the city touring, you can have lots of RP with the various members of the troupe, and you can throw all sorts of challenges at them that will keep them on their toes and force them to develop new tactics while juggling all sorts of roleplaying issues.

So they're immune to almost everything? Well, their client isn't.
If they draw a close cordon around the client, the client will start bitching about being smothered in no time - and may go elude them if they aren't careful.

So they're not interested in going dungeon-crawling and monster-bashing? Let them try their hand at the other side of the game, where they'll come to fear the unknown that may be about to come storming in through that door for some bodyguard bashing.

So CR 10 monsters don't commonly live in ditches by the roadside in your world? They don't in mine. A travelling troupe of performers, drivers, cooks, guards, kids, general family will make for tons of portable random encounters if you want them - even before they reach the next town.

If you like the idea but have trouble coming up with details, have a look at "In the line of fire" (Clint Eastwood) and "Bodyguard" (Kevin Costner). Many people have seen those, though, so don't trust your players not to know their plots. Feel free to post for more detail, too.

Just a thought.

And hey, the players love your campaign! So you must be doing something right.

 

[Airwolf]

Here is an idea I used.

Have the city come to the edge of war. I built this up over several sessions. The 'enemies' are a kingdom of anything you want (I used elves). Traditionally the two kingdoms have had good relations, but something has changed.

The PC's had to poke around in both of the cities to find out that an evil force was behind the souring relationship. The evil can be anything, an old curse come true, a demon trying to bring war to the area or world, etc. The powers that be in both cities began to suspect that the PCs were spies for the other side; I had lots of fun making the players paranoid.

It involved lots of RP on the player's part and not much combat. If you want to really mix things up throw in a third kingdom coming with a huge army trying to defeat both of the first two kingdoms.

Good Luck

 

[humble minion]

If you're looking for motivation for the PCs to get involved in 'adventure', one idea would be to play on the unusual racial makeup of the party. Have a demagogue appear who preaches a 'take back the night' line, organises monster-hunting parties, unites the churches to flush out vampires etc. Do the PCs help him (cos he quite possibly is having a good effect, making life safer for ordinary people), or do they try to take him down to protect themselves. How do they do this without making him a martyr? Is he all he appears, or is does he have a hidden agenda or a secret master? Send a mob of 1st-3rd level warriors (with flaming torches) after the PCs. Do they butcher the lot of them? Do they run, or hide?

This way, simply killing their enemies probably isn't a problem for the party. Defeating them, discrediting their cause, or softening their fanaticism, is the (much more difficult) goal. Especially if they have to do it without killing too many inncocents or making too many enemies.