My Initial Problems with 4CTF (Not an attack)

[javadragon]

Okay first off let me repeat, "This is not an attack".

To prove that I come in peace I will start out with the things that I like:

1) The Background mechanic is great.

2) Chapter 5. All of it. This chapter talks about creating a Supers game. It could apply equally well to any system and in my opinion is great for new GM's.

Now to the stuff I have some problems with. All of my problems basically stem from the feel of the game system.

1) DR. This is a big one for me. The problem is that because they wanted to maintain conformity with D&D they stuck with the D&D AC concept. In my opinion this seriously hampers the comic idea of the brick getting hit a million times but shrugging it off. In 4CTF either you have a high AC, in which case you don't get hit in the first place, or you have something like 15/+3 so you still take damage most of the time. This leads to two sub problems for me:
a) The closest thing to a force field that I can find is Shield. Now to actually get a force field you have to get Shield (base rank 4) + Mobile Shield (base rank 5) + Full Arc (base rank 8) (maybe + Full Shield (base rank 5)). If you don’t take Full shield all it does is increase your AC (making you harder to hit). If Full Shield is taken it blocks everything. So there is no middle ground it’s all or nothing for damage which doesn’t feel very “4 color” to me.
b) If you went the Invulnerability route for armour any weakling with Super Strike can hurt you!

2) Leading into me next point, super strength. Is it just me or is it way to hard to create a super strong hero. Why would you break it into 3 different powers?

3) There is no concept of energy. Which means you can keep up your perfect force field all day long. In most comics there is only so much a character with a force field can take. They eventually tire. Same thing with energy blasts, etc.

 

[Morrus]

Let's see....

1) DR - wait for the update after D20 Modern. It'll be free!
a & b) - Sound like powers that could go in the superpowers book!

2) It was a hard one - it originated from the old argumnet surrounding the BAB bonus for high strength. Someone like the Hulk, with 90+ strength, would be able to hit spiderman easily because of that BAB bonus. So we decided to break it down - one ability that gave you a flat Str bonus (if you want it), one that's good for lifting and damaging and one that's good for lifting only.

3) That's another thing that could easily go in the supoerpowers book!

My suggestion - when the Open Call starts, submit your ideas!

 

[Morrus]

I've made a brief stab at an energy pool power in another thread. It's very rushed, and needs tweaking, but intend to put it in the superpowers book.

 

[Horacio]

I hate, really hate, the concept of Energy fueling the powers. I hate only be able to use Energy Blast X times a day. It can work for D&D magic, but not for superheroes. I love 4CTF for not using it.

BTW, I've just posted a review of 4CTF at ENWorld...

 

[hong]

1) DR. This is a big one for me. The problem is that because they wanted to maintain conformity with D&D they stuck with the D&D AC concept. In my opinion this seriously hampers the comic idea of the brick getting hit a million times but shrugging it off.

A "miss" in D&D can be a hit. If you roll high enough to beat a target's touch AC, but not high enough to beat its regular AC, that effectively means your attack bounced off the armour. Unless you happen to think that full plate armour surrounds its wearer in a mystical force field....

a) The closest thing to a force field that I can find is Shield. Now to actually get a force field you have to get Shield (base rank 4) + Mobile Shield (base rank 5) + Full Arc (base rank 8) (maybe + Full Shield (base rank 5)). If you don’t take Full shield all it does is increase your AC (making you harder to hit).

... like this one, I guess.

 

[Yellow Sign]

I think that the DR fits very nicely with a superhero type game. While AC does not. For example:

Mister Neutron is being shot at by an Agent of E.V.I.L. The Agent is using a normal pistol. Say the pistol does 1d10 damage normally and Mister Neutron has a DR of +3/10. Most shots would just bounce off Neutron's radiocative skin (save for a critical hit).
The same Agent using a rocket launcher (3d10 damage) would most likely do some damage with every hit.
But if you use AC as the guiding factor you have this.

The agent has a Ranged Attack Value of +3. Mister Neuton's AC is 22 (Because of his super hard skin and a small dexterity bonus) Both the pistol and the rocket launcher have the same chance to hit but the rocket launcher would so more damage if it hit. Also give that same Agent a Ranged attack value of +12 and normal pistol, your doing damage to Neuton 50% of the time.

Just my 2 cents worth.

 

[hong]

I think that the DR fits very nicely with a superhero type game. While AC does not. For example:

Mister Neutron is being shot at by an Agent of E.V.I.L. The Agent is using a normal pistol. Say the pistol does 1d10 damage normally and Mister Neutron has a DR of +3/10. Most shots would just bounce off Neutron's radiocative skin (save for a critical hit).
The same Agent using a rocket launcher (3d10 damage) would most likely do some damage with every hit.

The average guy who gets hit with an RPG (not meaning a role-playing game, for once) is usually _dead_. Since we're talking about people who can get hit with RPGs and keep going, we're clearly not talking about average guys here. Unfortunately once we do this, we're at a loss for empirical data to support or reject the hypothesis that an RPG could do damage and yet not kill someone it hits.

Thus AC can fit perfectly well with a superhero game, because you cannot disprove the hypothesis that it doesn't. Mr Neutron's super-tough skin could serve to make the RPG bounce harmless off his hide. Or he could take damage, but keep going. Both are possible when the implausible is highly probable.

And that doesn't even address the likelihood of splash damage and energy damage. If you wanted, you could have RPGs deal explosive damage to everyone in a 5 or 10-foot radius, like a D&D fireball. AC is irrelevant against such attacks.

 

[Allensh]

I hate, really hate, the concept of Energy fueling the powers. I hate only be able to use Energy Blast X times a day. It can work for D&D magic, but not for superheroes. I love 4CTF for not using it.

BTW, I've just posted a review of 4CTF at ENWorld...

I am with you completely on that. I see no valid justification for "endurance" rules in superhero games. Yes, force fields can eventually collapse, but heroes only get tired when it suits the needs of the plot. Silver Age Sentinels runs just fine without Energy Points (although they are in there as an option). Some super gadgets might have limited energy, but that's different. Tracking energy is a bookkeeping pain in the butt.

Allen

 

[nameless]

As you said, it's not constant when the superhero "runs out of juice" but usually plot related. Maybe a mechanism for the critical failure of his super powers could exist, based on random events in the game.

Just off the cuff, anytime anyone gets a confirmed critical hit, put a counter in the critical failure pool. There is only one pool for DM and all players alike. Whenever someone rolls to confirm a critical, and the die rolls lower then the number or counters in the pool, then the catastrophic failure occurs. 1d4 of the victim's powers fail, and the victim is stunned for 1 round (the victim being the person who had the critical threat against them). I don't know how often this will happen, but it feels like it would be something like once every three or four sessions. I also don't know how long the power failure should last for.

-nameless

 

[buzzard]

I have a separate question/gripe. The haste power does not appear to be able to be taken more than once. If I am wrong about this please correct me. However if I am not, we have a horde of super speedsters (Flash, Quicksilver, etc.) who get shafted (had to say it).

Also the swipe at the eighties at the start of the setting section, even though in jest, was unnecessary.

Buzzard