My lord Earl and his wife the ??????

Al said:
With regard to courtesy titles, the general rule of thumb is that the eldest son is addressed as one lower. Thus, the son of a Duke is a Marquis. Courtesy titles can keep going: if that Marquis had a son, he would be an Earl.
Only if the title holder had such lesser titles to be "borrowed" by his male line descendants. Not every duke also has a Marquess title. Their son takes whatever the next highest title (as long as it is lower) that the father has. Most peers have gone up in titles (besides Royal dukes) and may have a large collection of titles by the time they reach Duke level. At least in the past, unfortunately it is no longer considered the thing to do to make hereditary peers. But since the current British government has seen to do away with the House of Lords maybe hereditary peers will come back into vogue as a sign of service to the Queen/King or state.
 

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Re: some tidbits

MonkeyBoy said:
Interestingly, despite awarding campaign medals, we (the UK) have no equivalent to the purple heart.

Perhaps because the point of being a solider is to avoid getting injured or killed and to instead injure and/or kill the enemy, or achieve a certain objective (preferably without getting yourself killed). Why reward people who are bad at their job?

Its not that we don't reward soliders who get injured or die in the line of duty with a medal, its just they have to have done something as well as just get injured/killed.

Anyone can get themselves shot/blown-up/stabbed in a war.
 

Re: Re: some tidbits

Bagpuss said:
Its not that we don't reward soliders who get injured or die in the line of duty with a medal, its just they have to have done something as well as just get injured/killed.

Anyone can get themselves shot/blown-up/stabbed in a war.
It is not an award for being shot, it is something earned for having been injured while serving your country. And being injured DOES NOT mean that they are not good at their job. The US is not the only country to give out medals for wounds. Germany has, in the past at least as well as the old Austrian Empire.
 


I think the viewpoint of the purple heart is that the solider suffered a sacrifice while serving his country. It may not have been the ultimate sacrifice, but it was still a sacrifice. It may not seem logical to you, but it's not about logic.

On the logic side, however, there are two things to consider. One is that war all about guns, grenades and artilery that shoot bullets and shells in all directions during a firefight. While you can keep your head down, you can't really do much about the rest of it. So getting wounded is more like bad luck compared to "doing your job good enough not to get hit." If this was still about swinging sword, I'd be more inclinded to agree the other way.

The second thing is that with long range artilery, NBC weapons and terroism, a solider serving in logistics and support is much more of a target in the 20th century. Just doing your job puts you at risk, which is why a lot of Americans see their soliders in the same light as firefighters and police. Did the clerk who heard the shells going off all day go awol? Did the surgeon who refused to leave his MASH operating room and yet got hit with shrapnel do a poor job of not getting hit?

Sure it may seem sentimental, but America is very protective of it's soliders compared to some countries. While "acceptable losses" is a military reality, it's not something openly discussed in public. In fact, most American movies make that the favorite line of a crazed or villianous military leader.

Overall, a lot of the older vets are very sentimental about their purple heart, it is a badge of honor to them. It is VERY bad form in America to suggest to the owner of a Purple Heart that the award is given to someone just because "anyone can get themselves shot/blown-up/stabbed in a war."
 
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Dragongirl said:
But since the current British government has seen to do away with the House of Lords maybe hereditary peers will come back into vogue as a sign of service to the Queen/King or state.

The government has not done away with the house of lords :)

The right (duty) of the hereditary peers to sit in the house has been, well, reformed away. The house remains, and life peers sit in it.

This means 2 things;

First, our government has shed a lot of baggage created by having legislature in place simply by chance of birth (hereditary peers)

Second, we have a second house (largely) filled with those appointed by elected officials. This moves us closer to a wholly elected legislature, which is a good thing.

We still have bishops in there, for some reason. (not only religious representatives in the legislature, but representing only one religion, which is a bad thing)

Its very unlikely that more hereditary peers will be created; the laws to create life peers were only passed in 1958 (!), because there were becoming too many hereditary peerages (125 hereditary baronies created between the 2nd world war and 1964)

Amazing how the more you look into this, the more information bubbles up! (shame each fresh source contradicts the last one you read, though)
 


Gez said:
So, noone can tell me the feminine form of thane ?

I think you will find that there were no female thanes, and therefore there is no feminine form of the title. An English thane's wife was known as his cwen. 'Cwen' means 'woman, is equivalent to 'lady', and is the original of the title 'queen' (which is pronounced the same). Things might have been different with regard to the wives of Scottish thanes.

Regards,


Agback
 

Origins and equivalencies of feudal titles

G'day

It is important to note that the strict hierarchy of feudal titles and the equivalencies between the titles of different nations, along witht eh strict forms of address, developed only gradually, and are anachronistic in most of the mediaeval period. For example, the custom of addressing the king as 'Your Majesty' or 'Your Highness' rather than as 'my lord' was introduced by Richard II in the fourteenth century. The first English dukedoms were created in the 1330s, the first English marquessates in 1385, the first English viscountcies in the 15th century, and the first baronetcies in the 17th century. For most of the mediaeval period the only English titles were earl and either thane (before 1066) or baron (after 1086).

The latin title 'dux' meant 'leader', and in the late Empire was given to the military governors of certain large areas. It was adopted under various forms in some of the barbarian kingdoms, and in the Carolingian empire it was used for the leaders of various conquered peoples who retained some automony, such as the Aquitainians, Gascons (Basques), Bretons, Burgundians, Saxons, Swabians, Bavarians, and Thuringians, and later for similar leaders of peoples such as the Normans. The English earls before the Conquest were in a similar position, being subordinate rulers of such conquered kingdoms as Mercia, Northumbria, East Anglia, Kent, and Essex, and of Wessex, the original kingdom that had conquered the rest: all of them (except Kent) territories consisting of several shires. It is because of this equivalence that the Anglo-Saxon chronicles refer to William, duke of Normandy, as 'Earl William'. The title 'duke' was not introduced into England late in the Mediaeval period, at first it was given to the king's younger brothers to give them precedence over the earls. Later it was simply a cheap reward for the kings' friends.

Marquises and margrafs were originally the rulers of borderlands. Along the eastern edge of the Empire were the March of the Billungers (later the duchy of Oldenburg), the Northern March (later the duchy of Brandenburg and the Kingdom of Prussia), the March of Lusatia, the March of Zeitz, the March of Meissen, the March Nordgau, the Eastern March (later the duchy, archduchy, and eventually empire of Austria), the Styrian March, the Carinthian Mrach, and the March of Carniola. The Kingdom of Italy (yes, there was one) had the Margravate of Verona. The Kingdom of France had a margravate of Gothia, a margravate of Septimania, and a Spanish March (later the county of Barcelona). Margraves originally had special powers for dealing with military emergencies across the borders they guarded, and were thus generally considered a cut about ordinary grafs or comtes of the interior. But it is wise not to generalise this rule. Until the Kingdom of France conquered the Languedoc in the Albigensian Crusade of 1208-1228 the marquises of Gothia and Septimania were unimportant vassals of the Comte de Toulouse. There were lords with special powers along the Welsh and Scottish borders of mediaeval England, most notably the earls of Hereford, Chester, and Northumberland, and the bishop of Durham. But they did not have a special title. The title 'Marquess' was introduced only after the effective abolition of feudal government, and as a cheap reward for the friends of the king.

The comtes and grafs of France and Germany were originally local governors appointed by the king or emperor, like the English sheriffs (originally shire-reeve, shire-geraf, ie. graf of the shire). But as feudalism developed the families that held these titles made them, their revenues, and their authority hereditary. When William of Normandy introduced feudal government into England he created a bunch of English earldoms equivalent to French comte-ships, roughly one to each shire. Thus he took the title 'earl' down a couple of notches. In Germany there were variations of the title for the feudal rules of cities (burggraf), border territories (markgraf), and interior territories (landgraf). As the authority of the Empire crumbled, especially after the Imperial defeat in the Investitures Controversy, those grafs who were not vassals of dukes (and were therefore 'princes of the Empire' started to use the titles 'prinz' and 'fürst').

Vicomtes were originally vice-counts: appointed deputies of the counts. And thus early records of Norman England use the French 'vicomte' to represent the English 'sheriff'. As the feudal system developed the title 'viscomte' was used (mostly in the South, where the custom of primogeniture was weak) by families that had inherited part of a county, or who claimed the power of a count without having a legitimate delegation from the Emperor. The title was introduced into England (in the form 'viscount') merely as a cheap way for the King to reward his favourites, giving them eminence above the other barons without rivalling the earls.

'Baron' originally meant 'man', in the sense perhaps of 'the King's man in this district' or 'working for the Man'. It originally comprehended all lords, even those with higher titles, and only gradually developed into the title of a specific rank. As it did so it subsumed such unique titles as that of the Captal de Bouche, and informally bestowed itself on families who had made themselves lords or seigneurs without any explicit appointment by the king. In Germany the equivalent was 'freiherr': a term that alluded to the old barbarian distinction between free men and thegns.

Below the peers of the realm were noble landowners without titles, the equivalent, really of what were lately called 'squires'. These often served in wars as knights banneret [ie. leading their banners (contingents) of household knights in the armies of their feudal superiors], but 'knight banneret' was never a title, and the supposed 'order of knights banneret' was 'revived' as baronets by Charles II only through an unscholarly error. In actual records of, for instance, the 13th century, knights banneret are records as, for example "munsire Johan de Eyvile" or "Sir John de Ewill".

While we are on the subject, did you know that in mediaeval England it was customary to call a parish priest (for example) 'Sir John', not 'Father John'. The title 'father' was reserved for abbots and priors. Priests with master's or doctor's degrees were addressed by their academic titles.

Regards,

Agback
 
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