D&D 5E My New Players Have Quit 5th Edition

[Nebulous]

That's pretty much what GMs are for. I don't think that the game rules should coddle players, character death is part of the learning curve. It's not like you can't NOT just pretend it didn't happen and start over with the same characters.

At times i've been an advocate of your "identical" twin showing up, same character sheet, the name scratched out and replaced.

 

[fanboy2000]

My coworker played three pre-gens. The two newbies played one character each.

Didn't any of your characters loose the surprise round?

The Goblins won the surprise round.

Two Goblins attacked the Cleric in the same round because the Cleric was nearest to them. I did not pair 1 Goblin to 1 character.

I rolled the damage on the characters, I never applied average damage before. But I might next game.

The next round began and I let all characters and monsters go according to their initiative roll. Was this a mistake? Should the party attack first because they didn't during the surprise round?

The Cleric did not have a chance. With 2 Goblins hitting both rounds and me rolling damage, that brought the Cleric to 0 hit points.

I house ruled out all surprise rounds as a result. I will use average damage next game to see if that will work instead of me adding hit points at first level. But applying average damage is pulling back the punches. And it also makes my encounters too easy. A party has destroyed all my monsters during surprise rounds in the past so I house ruled out surprise rounds in previous editions.

Edit: I did not read Knocking a Creature Out in the rules carefully.

Well, technically, there's no surprise round. Though I don't know if knowing that would have changed the way you ran the combat. Or if you do know it and simply used surprise round because that's been the nomenclature for 14 years.

During the first round of combat, characters that are surprised (characters who don't notice any threat) don't get to act or take reactions until the next round. Characters that do notice a threat (any threat, if I'm reading it correctly) get their actions during combat as normal. Some members of the party maybe surprised, some not. Thus, you would go in infinitive order during the surprise round (really the first round of combat) just some characters would have their actions and some would not.

So, for the Goblins to go the first round without any PC noticing would mean that they beat all the PCs passive perceptions. Alliteratively, since you roll once for groups of monsters, the Goblins could simply have won initiative in general. Worst case scenario, they beat all the PCs passive perceptions and win initiative, since surprised characters don't get actions until the second round, the Goblins get two attacks in before any PCs can act (though on the second round, PCs would get reactions.)

Clearly, it's a tough combat. That the Goblins explicitly don't kill the PCs is pretty much there for the exact scenario you've encountered.

 

[fanboy2000]

At times i've been an advocate of your "identical" twin showing up, same character sheet, the name scratched out and replaced.

So, in the game I just finished playing, the party (a group of investigators in a city game) put a group of adventurers on trial (one of the party was a prosecutor) and one of the adventurers was explicitly the brother of all the previous rogues the adventuring party had. (Apparently, all of his siblings were named 'Joe'.)

 

[Emerikol]

I don't even know what you mean about my "assumptions about D&D players in general" line; could you fill me in?

As for why, I think it's plainly tradition mixed with the simple way D&D's mechanics work. If you start out with x hit points, then next level you have 2x, you're less fragile by definition. I'm saying I don't think "gritty" and "beginner" should be tied together like this through the mechanics.


I don't love the wording, "coddling players" because it feeds into and assumes the weird machismo about 1st-level character death that's been running up and down this thread.

If you are saying "I personally think that not being able to be killed in one blow is what is best for new players" then fine. If you are saying though that other players including new players all agree with you then I take exception. That was my point.

There is no evidence that I've seen that indicates new players have any more issue with dying than old players do. Some don't mind and some do. It could just as easily be presented that a new player might think D&D is too easy or is not suspenseful. People quit D&D after a session or two all the time. I don't think most of them are retainable. I do think roleplaying is not for everyone. Most of the time, I believe those it is good for will stick with it even if their character dies in one blow.

And that is just my opinion.

 

[Tequila Sunrise]

There is nothing quite like introducing two new players to 5th Edition and having their pregenerated characters die in the surprise round of the 1st encounter without getting to take any actions.

Wow, no surprise they quit!

Good luck with your problem -- I'm sure you'll find a solution in or out of 5e!

 

[Dausuul]

Bugbears are not beasts they have brain enough to fight in ranks (as I remember from the 3.5 MM description). I think they would try to bring down yhe obvious treat. But this fall under "DM discretion", and maybe we are out of topic.

Humans behave the same way. And for good reason; any predator, whether animal or human, is concerned first of all with not getting killed by whatever it's attacking. You go for the weak target, one that you can take down fast, then escape. A tough target is something to be avoided.

"In war, the way is to avoid what is strong, and strike at what is weak." --Sun Tzu

Here's my question: When exactly do the PCs run into this bugbear? I had the impression it was late in the adventure. Are they still 1st level at that point?

 

[darjr]

My players split up. The knew better. The were even joking about it before the proverbial poo hit the fan.

Though after it was interesting to see how they handled waking up in the 'larder'. And gobo's like to torture their food. So keeping them alive for the sport of it fits. (at least that's what I say).

 

[MerricB]

During the first round of combat, characters that are surprised (characters who don't notice any threat) don't get to act or take reactions until the next round. Characters that do notice a threat (any threat, if I'm reading it correctly) get their actions during combat as normal.

Mostly correct. Surprised characters skip their initial turn in the initiative order. They become eligible for reactions immediately after they skip their turn - they don't need to wait for the next round of combat to begin.

Characters who are not surprised can take reactions from the beginning of combat.

Cheers!

 

[fanboy2000]

Mostly correct. Surprised characters skip their initial turn in the initiative order. They become eligible for reactions immediately after they skip their turn - they don't need to wait for the next round of combat to begin.

I just re-looked up the surprise, and you're right you can take reactions after your turn ends. I don't know why I thought it wasn't until the next round.

I don't know how I feel about the new surprise rules. On one hand, they make sense in the new action economy of 5e. On the other, there's a potential for monsters to really jack-up a surprised party of adventurers. I will say this, in 4e, only getting one action on the surprise round often meant my character didn't receive much benefit from surprising the monsters. Particularly if combat started at a distance.

 

[DEFCON 1]

II will say this, in 4e, only getting one action on the surprise round often meant my character didn't receive much benefit from surprising the monsters. Particularly if combat started at a distance.

Which is precisely why I did not tend to play 4E's surprise rules as-is, for I found that "1 Action" rule to be unnecessarily prohibitive. Characters couldn't draw weapons and then attack, they couldn't open doors to attack, they couldn't stand up from behind walls and charge, if the melee were further than their charge range they couldn't attack, etc. etc. They were fine usually for my ranged players, but melee tended to get hosed. I understood the intent behind the 4E surprise rules... I just didn't find the need to follow them that precisely.