My Opinion of WOTC's Digital Initative and the current events

[Najo]

P&P also has the benefit of intense creativity on the behalf of the DM (or GM for any rpg for that matter). For me, the greatest thrill of running a game is building the adventure, knowing i that i came up with this, and i get to share it with some friends. That creative outlet is something that no computer will ever be able to replace (except for the guys that coded the games!)

Exactly, which is why you need a DM academy with a fun reward system. DMs should become honned by lessons/ tests and then go out and run games with registered players (like through DCI cards). DMs then earn special rewards they can only get through doing the program. At some point, this includes apprenticing new DMs. The DMs are the key to spreading the game, because they will grab their friends and make them play with them. DMs are often the social hub of their circle.

 

[caudor]

I don't think WotC is even trying to make D&D into the next WoW. I believe the digital initiative has one major goal in mind: to make D&D easier to play without dumbing it down. Technology is the key to doing this.

Have you ever had to flip through numerous hardbacks to make a character? It is fun having all those options, but sometimes difficult to access those options. And time consuming.

Providing a characters generator, virtual tabletop, advanced search features will not make D&D into something else...it will just make it easier to get a game together and play. If you still want to do it with hardcover books or simply want to read Heroes of Horror in the bathroom, the books will still be there.

It's worth saying again: The DI aims to make D&D easier to play without dumbing it down.

 

[Nahat Anoj]

What WOTC needs to do is adapt D&D by removing its barriers to entry for new players and DMs.

In your opinion, what are these?

IMO, the two main ones I see are the need (or, at least, the perception of need) to buy/read lots of books in order to play and the general social stigma of being a gamer. The latter is probably a greater barrier than the former.

I think changing the rules to be simpler without sacrificing tactical complexity, play faster, and fit in one book can be done. Barring some fairly major cultural event, I'm not sure if changing the social perceptions of D&D is possible. Good fantasy movies like LotR help, as does fantasy anime, but I think a lot more has to happen.

 

[Zaruthustran]

Thornir Alekeg, I think that WOTC needs to not make D&D into WOW. That would be a mistake, as we discussed above. The key is to make D&D a streamlined, fast play and exciting heroic, action-based, story-telling game with tactical combat not bogged down by trying to simulate what a computer can do. Combat should be fast and exciting, like play fighting.

D&D grew from a crunchy wargame, created before computers were common household items. The current 3.5 ruleset has normalized some of the rules (a high number is always good, etc.) but has also turned the fiddly crunchiness up to 11. At 11, the system starts to break down and a computer is needed to process the game. For example:

* Many different Types of modifiers, some of which stack, some of which don't
* Many different combat modifiers, some of which only apply in certain situations
* Hundreds upon hundreds of feats, many of which allow the character to "break" the rules (for example: Combat Reflexes, which breaks the "only one AoO per round" rule)
* Dozens of skills, many of which have their own sub-system of rules (diplomacy, jump, intimidate) and many of which give bonuses to other skills
* Many hundreds of spells
* Many dozens of PRCs, many of which have new abilities/sub-systems of rules

Due to the need to continue to feed the revenue furnace, all of the above are spread over dozens of rulebooks. The current game has gotten too big for any single player to comfortably manage. As written, 3.5 *needs* to go online simply in order to be usable.

Think about it. A player with every single 3.5 book (not even counting the weird DM-focused books, like Stormwrack, Monster Manuals, or Dragon Magic) cannot go to a game day with a single backpack. He needs at least two backpacks in order to carry all of his resources. I know players who have moved on to those rolling carry-on suitcases--their game books (again, only books with *player* material) cannot physically fit into a single backpack.

This weekend I was DMing a Savage Tide game. The four players were all game veterans each with 20+ years of experience. Two of them worked for prominent RPG companies, and one was a published game designer. The players leveled, and it took an hour and a half to complete all the paperwork. An hour and a half. There were adding errors, flipping through books ("is that feat in Complete Warrior, Complete Adventurer, or PHB II?"), rules issues, etc. etc.

If all the books' rules were integrated online with a character entry, the levelup process would have taken 30 seconds.

1. Click "levelup this character"
2. Click a class (the system auto-highlights available classes, and automatically applies BAB, saves, hit points, and any other numbers)
3. Click a feat (the system auto-highlights available feats, and has a tooltip popup with the feat's effect)
4. Distribute skill points (the system auto-calculates skill points, and highlights class skills, and auto-calculates final skill number)
5. Click "Save" (the system stores your character online, making him available anywhere you can access the internet: your phone, home, work, your friend's house, wherever)

No more erasing. No more math errors. No more hours searching through books.

When even industry professionals have a terrible time using the game, it's time for a fix. There can either be a complete overhaul of the rules (a fourth edition, as the OP describes, with far, far less crunch) or the game rules can be put online. It's one or the other.

-z

 

[Thornir Alekeg]

Thornir Alekeg, I think that WOTC needs to not make D&D into WOW. That would be a mistake, as we discussed above. The key is to make D&D a streamlined, fast play and exciting heroic, action-based, story-telling game with tactical combat not bogged down by trying to simulate what a computer can do. Combat should be fast and exciting, like play fighting.

People enjoy good stories. People enjoy using their imaginations. That won't change as long as their are outlets that encourge it. D&D is social and strongest when you can bring people together. Now, I do think you can put together virtual gaming rooms with cameras, internet speach and game play support tools (i.e. dice rolling, maps, player aids and handouts) but by trying to just deal with the mechanics and replicate them online is a mistake, it gives strength to a MMO which gives nearly the same experience as kick in the door and kill the kobold and does not require a DM. Each instance in WOW is basically a module in the classic D&D sense, and they do the hack and slay experience fine. D&D can not compete here. You have to give players (especially the new kids) a unique experience they can't get any where else. That requires roleplaying and make believe, which everyone has done at some point in their childhood. Embrace that and support heroic story telling.

This is also why I feel D&D should always support the game store. Game stores are important to hobby games as they bring people together, which is needed to allow the game to grow and spread. If game stores were not there, then D&D is now stuck in small isolated groups of friends in people's living rooms. Once that happens, it is a matter of time before the computer games snuff out roleplaying games because new generations will not be expose to it.

Our store has a ton of Yugioh and Pokemon kids in it every week. These kids are ideal targets for learning why D&D is fun, and it has to offer them something more than a MMO can, otherwise they will do the activity with the least barriers to entry, which right now is World of Warcraft. We are developing intro level D&D material that targets these customers and puts alot of these strategies into effect. Once implimented it will be interesting to see how it works.

OK, I see where you were going, now. From your first post I couldn't quite figure out what exactly you wanted to see changed. I cannot say I disagree with your points, but I think the reality of it is that the thrill I know I and my friends got from D&D as kids has been replaced by computer games. Sorry, when I was starting out in 5th grade, I played D&D for one reason - to kill things and take their stuff. It was only as I grew older, became a little more mature, and got bored with pure "kill and loot" games that I started to appreciate what you could really do with D&D.

I think I'm agreeing more with Maddman75. I don't think introducing the game to the 13 year olds will have the desired effect - too much work, no instant gratification. It feels really wierd to be saying something along the lines of "kids these days..." but I think it is the reality. The only reason it was different 20 years ago is because the computer games couldn't yet compare. I think D&D is better off getting the attention of the kids through computer gaming (creatively, don't just mimic WoW), thereby bringing them to the well, hoping they will one day drink.

One other issue with computer games that PnP RPGs will never really be able solve - time. I can pop onto the computer and play for just 45 minutes if that is all the time I have for it. That just isn't practical for a D&D game, no matter what digital gaming tools you can provide. You still need the rest of your group to agree to get together at a particular time and for the same length of time.

 

[Umbran]

I think that lumping dead card games in with dead rpgs and counting both against the company's past performance for RPGS is... not a good way to use the evidence.

Card games are quite a different market, and are developed by different people. And note that while the list of dead card games may be a bit long, the list of dead RPGs since the release of 3e is not. That suggests that they use quite thoroughly different strategies for cards and for rpgs, so we shouldn't conflate the two.

 

[Zaruthustran]

In your opinion, what are these?

IMO, the two main ones I see are the need (or, at least, the perception of need) to buy/read lots of books in order to play and the general social stigma of being a gamer. The latter is probably a greater barrier than the former.

I think changing the rules to be simpler without sacrificing tactical complexity, play faster, and fit in one book can be done. Barring some fairly major cultural event, I'm not sure if changing the social perceptions of D&D is possible. Good fantasy movies like LotR help, as does fantasy anime, but I think a lot more has to happen.

The social stigma is gone. Look at LotR, Heroes, Lost, Spider-Man. Look at World of Warcraft. Look at Xbox, PS3, the Wii. Being a gamer is the norm.

The barrier to D&D is the need to buy/read all those books. At first glance the PHB looks like a school textbook. Before you can play you need to first study, then fill out a form and present it to your DM for review.

Talk about a bad experience for your target market.

How much better it would be if all character generation was online. With a few clicks you make your guy, print him out, and you're done--and the guy is 100% accurate/rules legal. No need to buy and study a textbook. No math. No dedicated chunk of time for hours of research.

Set aside personal preference* and think about D&D as a business. Examine the need to expand the customer base and make your own products more usable.

-z

* I like reading gamebooks, at least for the first time through. After that, I'd rather access the info in a more usable way: online.

 

[ShadowDenizen]

I cannot say I disagree with your points, but I think the reality of it is that the thrill I know I and my friends got from D&D as kids has been replaced by computer games. Sorry, when I was starting out in 5th grade, I played D&D for one reason - to kill things and take their stuff. It was only as I grew older, became a little more mature, and got bored with pure "kill and loot" games that I started to appreciate what you could really do with D&D.

I don't think that's necessarily true.
Is WoW more convenient? Sure.
Easier to learn? Sure.
And the time factor you mention is a draw as well.

But is it as "thrilling", even for a modern 13-year old?
I'm not so sure.
How excited can one get about a DVD you pop into a computer?

I think I'm agreeing more with Maddman75. I don't think introducing the game to the 13 year olds will have the desired effect - too much work, no instant gratification. It feels really wierd to be saying something along the lines of "kids these days..." but I think it is the reality. The only reason it was different 20 years ago is because the computer games couldn't yet compare. I think D&D is better off getting the attention of the kids through computer gaming (creatively, don't just mimic WoW), thereby bringing them to the well, hoping they will one day drink.

I'm not sure how pervasive "Instant Gratification" is nowadays, amongst teens and pre-teens.. (I'm a good two decades removed from that age.)

But I don't think WizBro would be well served by going entirely online, though I will say that a digital presence is a must- and should include a workable, rjules-legal, character generator.

 

[freebfrost]

If all the books' rules were integrated online with a character entry, the levelup process would have taken 30 seconds.

Sounds like Neverwinter Nights to me.

And given the massive amount of support for that product by a company who is in the business of making software, the bugginess of software in general, and so on, why do you think that WotC's DI will in any way be able to keep this "leveling" software up-to-date, functional, and error-free?

 

[Lockridge]

I'm joining a bit late but wanted to say thanks to Najo for a great post.
I agree with you however I have to admit that for my own selfish purposes I'm looking forward to D&D getting crushed by WOW.
I'm a mature gamer who would've loved the intro you described above with the evil empire to the east but there are too many gamers out there who don't care about story.

When I started D&D as an young teen we didn't just kill monsters and take their stuff. We followed a story that affected our characters personally. Too many D&D'ers only want to do the hack and slash.

So the reason I wouldn't mind WOW taking over is because it will take away the players who just want to kill things and level up. This will leave dedicated players who enjoy imagination and personal interaction. It may in fact attract many of these players who have since left the game after becoming bored with killing another orc.

Although I still play d20, I rarely buy from WOTC but instead buy from independants (check out Necromancer and Malhavoc to name two). I've also tried other systems like Savage Worlds which focus away from turning an RPG into an R(oll)PG.