My Opinion of WOTC's Digital Initative and the current events

[Raven Crowking]

Najo,

I agree with you 100%.

RC

 

[Nahat Anoj]

The social stigma is gone. Look at LotR, Heroes, Lost, Spider-Man. Look at World of Warcraft. Look at Xbox, PS3, the Wii. Being a gamer is the norm.

You're right, there is no stigma attached to being a gamer. However, there most certainly is a stigma attached to playing D&D and traditional roleplaying games (tabletop and larp).

 

[maddman75]

Your right, there is no stigma attached to being a gamer. However, there most certainly is a stigma attached to playing D&D and traditional roleplaying games (tabletop and larp).

This is mostly in the mind of the gamer. Most people don't give a crap about what you do in your spare time. Maybe when you're in high school, but people act stupid over what other people do in high school no matter what. I can talk about gaming and make myself look like an interesting, creative person.

There's not a stigma about being a gamer*. There's a stigma attached to being a socially inept dork that can't stop talking about his character.




* and by gamer I mean someone who plays tabletop RPGs. I know the term is evolving, but getting high with your frat buddies and playing Halo does *NOT* make you a gamer!

 

[gizmo33]

I'm a mature gamer who would've loved the intro you described above with the evil empire to the east but there are too many gamers out there who don't care about story.

Too many? So the tabletop hobby is not devisive or petty enough regarding gaming style? So my first step in this new and improved gaming environment is to step onto the campus of DnD University and get yelled at for not being a story-teller? Ideally, I'd like to find a community of gamers that support my habit, which is not what I'm going to find if someone's coming down on me because my PCs aren't furnished with some cliche Conan-knock-off of a character background.

So it's not the people that are already playing the game that are the problem. Acting like there is a right way to play the game is just increasing that so called "barrier of entry". I've spent 25 years trying to figure out what story-tellers are talking about and I'm not there yet.

How about a story-based series of modules? (hmmm) You could try developing a "story teller" gaming system (hmmmm). How about a diceless system (hmmmm). Or what about writing up your guidelines on how to improve the game and submit it to Dragon? (hmmmmm!)

My point is, story-tellers have had at least 20 years to sell their vision of what DnD is about. While there is always room to further refine your interests, I don't think that rehashing the same old gripes about people's gaming style is going to change the environment. And I don't think a collapse of the tabletop gaming industry is going to bring a flood of story-teller focused gaming products to your doorstep.

 

[Zaruthustran]

Sounds like Neverwinter Nights to me.

And given the massive amount of support for that product by a company who is in the business of making software, the bugginess of software in general, and so on, why do you think that WotC's DI will in any way be able to keep this "leveling" software up-to-date, functional, and error-free?

Well, NWN had 3-D graphics, a combat system, and all the other trappings of a computer game. It had to figure out what an AoO is in 3-D, non-battlemap space, and program the Combat Reflexes feat to plug into whatever system they came up with.

The tabletop D&D level system--the actual ruleset--isn't as hard to program for. It's just rules and modifiers, without the need to implement those modifiers in real-time combat in a game. A D&D level system is essentially a database (the rules) and accounting (the character sheet) program. Enter feat X, reference database Y, calculate value Z and output to the sheet.

Heck, Heroforge is an Excel hack made by amateurs and it's pretty rules-solid*. Put a complete team of full-time programmers on the thing (with months to playtest/bug check books before they come out) and I'm optimistic.

-z

* Though the interface is, well, Excel. Not exactly attractive or user-friendly.

 

[maddman75]

So it's not the people that are already playing the game that are the problem. Acting like there is a right way to play the game is just increasing that so called "barrier of entry". I've spent 25 years trying to figure out what story-tellers are talking about and I'm not there yet.

Here is my attempt, though I prefer the term 'Story-Creating Gaming'.

 

[freebfrost]

The tabletop D&D level system--the actual ruleset--isn't as hard to program for. It's just rules and modifiers, without the need to implement those modifiers in real-time combat in a game. A D&D level system is essentially a database (the rules) and accounting (the character sheet) program. Enter feat X, reference database Y, calculate value Z and output to the sheet.

Ever used PCGen?

I've been using it since version 2 (I believe the current prod version is 5.10.1), and it's still buggy, but by far is the best example of program similar to what the DI would need - something platform-independent, flexible, and scalable.

You are right, it isn't as hard to program - it's harder. Simply consider what one optional system rule impacts - say, allowing all skills to be class skills - does to the underlying structure of the game. And this doesn't include house rules.

Unless you want a system that is totally inflexible and built to one ruleset period, making it practically useless unless you follow RAW to the nth degree, it will be difficult to implement well and more importantly, maintain in a timely fashion.

 

[Zaruthustran]

You are right, it isn't as hard to program - it's harder. Simply consider what one optional system rule impacts - say, allowing all skills to be class skills - does to the underlying structure of the game. And this doesn't include house rules.

Harder? I don't see how that could be. With a character generator tool, the rules are just that: rules. With a game like NWN, the rules have to impact the 3-D, real-time gameworld. You have to translate the rules into actions. In other words, you to program X (the rules) and then you have to implement X. That is more work.

Your given example is trivially easy to implement. In basic form, all you have to do is change "Fighter class skills = A, B, C" to "Fighter class skills = A, B, C, ...Z". Done. On the front end, you'd implement this with a list of skills with little checkboxes next to them--you check the skills you want included as class skills, or click the little "check all" box if you want all of them to be class skills. Hit "save" and the changes are made. Easy.

-z

 

[freebfrost]

Harder? I don't see how that could be. With a character generator tool, the rules are just that: rules. With a game like NWN, the rules have to impact the 3-D, real-time gameworld. You have to translate the rules into actions. In other words, you to program X (the rules) and then you have to implement X. That is more work.

Download PCGen and implement that change. Tell me how long it takes you.

Your given example is trivially easy to implement. In basic form, all you have to do is change "Fighter class skills = A, B, C" to "Fighter class skills = A, B, C, ...Z". Done. On the front end, you'd implement this with a list of skills with little checkboxes next to them--you check the skills you want included as class skills, or click the little "check all" box if you want all of them to be class skills. Hit "save" and the changes are made. Easy.

And how is this implemented in the character generator itself? Remember, that your front-end has to be translated into the backend in a meaningful way. You changing class-skills also impacts which feats are available, which PrCs are available, what synergies you have, familiar abilities, and so on.

And again, this is a relatively simple change. Now imagine if I want to house rule skill sets (a la Monte Cook). How do you code for that kind of change?

 

[MichaelSomething]

I totally agree with you Najo!

There does need to be more support for DMs and Local gaming stores! D&D needs good DMs and Local Gaming Stores!