My PCs lack charisma...
- Thread starter RaZZer99
- Start date
Kobold Curry Chef said:You'll find that kobolds are far more interesting when they're kept in one piece. In fact, it sounds like the party in question could use a good kobold diplomat...
Seriously, this is a self-correcting problem. When they can't convince anyone to help them with anything, they'll either try to kill everyone (a la Knights of the Dinner Table), or they will otherwise fail in their adventures. Eventually the light will go on. There are no dump stats in 3rd edition.
Ok, but what do you do when they realize that? Are you going to just ditch your current campaign and have them make all new characters?
Jack Haggerty
First Post
Well... They do get to increase an ability score every 4 levels.
Deadguy
First Post
...which they most certainly won't spend on Charisma!Jack Haggerty said:
Of course, they might if they've been shown that being so pug-ugly and unimpressive has led them to losing adventures (and perhaps lives).
Of course, Razzer, you do also have the option of talking with them first and explaining that their character designs leave somethingto be desired. Assure them that social interaction will be an important part of the game (and make sure that it is!). And reassure them that they don't have to have 16+ in all the physical stats to survive your campaign (and make sure that they don't). Perhaps show them a couple of adventurer-NPCs that they might meet (built to the same stipulations you believe are appropriate for your campaign), and what stats that they have; that might help reassure them.
if they won't co-operate - well they might not be the right players for you to DM for...
Well, you could explain to them that they're not thinking clearly if they leave low stats in point buy.
The two points that a 17 costs over a 16 will become wasterful at 4th level. You should save the higher stat raises for the 4th,8th, etc. levels and use point buy to raise those lower ones, where the cost is cheaper.
The two points that a 17 costs over a 16 will become wasterful at 4th level. You should save the higher stat raises for the 4th,8th, etc. levels and use point buy to raise those lower ones, where the cost is cheaper.
One solution is too use a 32 point buy and forbid any stats below a 10.
That way there is less of a tendency to want a dump stat to up the power level and an explicit prohibition against dumping on Charisma.
Another recomendation Give EP's for diplomatic solutions as well as combat. That opens more options to tangible rewards.
One thing about DND, the usual way it had been played in the dozen or so groups I have been in is as a power game.
Get loot, Kill to Get Skill and so on.
It takes a real effort to get DND'rs away from theis baggage and into a more roleplaying mode.
It can be done but it requires a lot of work with players, carefull adventure building and cooperation from all partys.
That way there is less of a tendency to want a dump stat to up the power level and an explicit prohibition against dumping on Charisma.
Another recomendation Give EP's for diplomatic solutions as well as combat. That opens more options to tangible rewards.
One thing about DND, the usual way it had been played in the dozen or so groups I have been in is as a power game.
Get loot, Kill to Get Skill and so on.
It takes a real effort to get DND'rs away from theis baggage and into a more roleplaying mode.
It can be done but it requires a lot of work with players, carefull adventure building and cooperation from all partys.
I agree with the whole "hit them where it hurts" mentality. Encountering many problems that could be solved much much easier with 'social skills'. Of course they could take the long road with brute force all the time, but if you design that route in such a way that it significantly drains resources. Then they'll learn their lessons.
Or just continue to enjoy doing things the hard way. Which I guess can still make for fun gaming.
On weird note, I usually encounter the same problem you do when my Players make up their characters too. Recently however, I started up a brand new group with all new Players. A strange thing happened. Half of them elected to put their high scores in Charisma! Weird as heck. What an oddity.
Or just continue to enjoy doing things the hard way. Which I guess can still make for fun gaming.
On weird note, I usually encounter the same problem you do when my Players make up their characters too. Recently however, I started up a brand new group with all new Players. A strange thing happened. Half of them elected to put their high scores in Charisma! Weird as heck. What an oddity.
Dougal DeKree
First Post
Diplomat
...another way would be:
Build up a crucial situation, where they have to use diplomacy to solve it, have a diplomat (for example Telepaths are particularly good for a situation like this) help them out...for a price. a horrific price. ok that's hitting them, again, where it hurts, but perhaps this will help in them getting the usefulness of Cha! and please, bluff them in combat, then sneak-damage. This WILL make it clear .-)
Dougal DeKree, Gnomish Illusionist
...another way would be:
Build up a crucial situation, where they have to use diplomacy to solve it, have a diplomat (for example Telepaths are particularly good for a situation like this) help them out...for a price. a horrific price. ok that's hitting them, again, where it hurts, but perhaps this will help in them getting the usefulness of Cha! and please, bluff them in combat, then sneak-damage. This WILL make it clear .-)
Dougal DeKree, Gnomish Illusionist
The Lone Corndog
First Post
Another solution is to communicate with your players before the campaign starts. If they are making three beefy non-spellcasters, you may want to point out that having someone play a magic using character may be helpful. Or just flat out tell 'em that you think their choices are gonna make it hard to successfuly adventure in the setting you have in mind. After all, you know what kinds of adventures you have in mind, they don't.
If, after having been told that you really didn't have in mind running a low-magic dungeon crawl, they persist on keeping the lopsided group it sounds like they have made, then they can't complain but so much if they really suck in some of the portions of the adventure.
"Teaching them a lesson" during gameplay, because the players failed to read your mind during the character creation process is, IMHO, crappy DMing. The whole point is to have fun and play a game, after all.
If, after having been told that you really didn't have in mind running a low-magic dungeon crawl, they persist on keeping the lopsided group it sounds like they have made, then they can't complain but so much if they really suck in some of the portions of the adventure.
"Teaching them a lesson" during gameplay, because the players failed to read your mind during the character creation process is, IMHO, crappy DMing. The whole point is to have fun and play a game, after all.
kengar
First Post
I had a similiar problem with my current 3e Forgotten Realms campaign. I have 5 players (which is a lot for me as DM) and I let them point-buy as well to avoid intra-party imbalance. Several of the PC's "dumped" on CHA -I have three of them with 8's (though, to be fair, one IS a half-orc). Fortunately for me, one of the others is a Sorcerer who took a CHA 17. This led to him trying to be Diplomatic in several info-gathering instances during the 1st session. I upped the DC for him whenever the "Rude Boys" were hanging around -interjecting stupid comments, etc.
This led to two things:
1) The low-CHA players were annoyed at first that the Sorcerer was "monopolizing" game time. I explained to them that not every situation is combat and if the party can't get the information that helps them FIND to the dungeon, then the low-CHA bashers aren't going to have much to do.
2) The high CHA player didn't feel like as much of a goob for taking some social skills. AND he got extra XP for roleplaying (something I make a point of trying to reward as much as combat).
Basically, if there is no high-CHA character in the party, this should cost them just as if they had no Rogue for traps or no cleric/druid for healing. It's about the players making decisions and having to live (or die) with them. You shouldn't deliberately sabotage them, but situations that address the party's weaknesses should come up now & again.
One final thought about the whole "Force will find a way" idea. There is a blurb in the DMG about high power characters acting with impunity and running roughshod over folks. Basically it tells the DM to remember that there is always a more powerful NPC out there that might take unkindly to that.
This led to two things:
1) The low-CHA players were annoyed at first that the Sorcerer was "monopolizing" game time. I explained to them that not every situation is combat and if the party can't get the information that helps them FIND to the dungeon, then the low-CHA bashers aren't going to have much to do.
2) The high CHA player didn't feel like as much of a goob for taking some social skills. AND he got extra XP for roleplaying (something I make a point of trying to reward as much as combat).
Basically, if there is no high-CHA character in the party, this should cost them just as if they had no Rogue for traps or no cleric/druid for healing. It's about the players making decisions and having to live (or die) with them. You shouldn't deliberately sabotage them, but situations that address the party's weaknesses should come up now & again.
One final thought about the whole "Force will find a way" idea. There is a blurb in the DMG about high power characters acting with impunity and running roughshod over folks. Basically it tells the DM to remember that there is always a more powerful NPC out there that might take unkindly to that.
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