My PCs lack charisma...

[Squire James]

One of the disadvantages of point-buy is that it is hard to get people to put points into sub-optimal stats. Face it, except for bards and sorcerers, Charisma is flat-out sub-optimal. Everything else either grants (1) combat ability, (2) skill points, or (3) saving throws. Dexterity grants ALL of the above! Now look at those characters and see how many have a good Dexterity... see a pattern?

You can tell your players that they have obviously decided (1) not to associate with nobles or people with a lot of money who thinks of themselves as nobles, (2) buy and sell goods at unfavorable rates because they can't haggle, and (3) get little or no credit for what they do because the general populace considers them little better than bandits.

If they acknowledge that and change nothing, well, now you know how to run your campaign!

 

[nopantsyet]

as a dm, i think it's very important to shepherd your players through character-creation until they understand your expectations. i encourage personal-building before character-building. my players come up with a concept for an individual, where he's been and where he's going, and present that to me. usually we'll discuss it to work out any problem areas (usually noted by the player, not by me) then create the character. some stats get dumped, but the players buy skills and take feats that round out the character.

two sessions ago, after three sessions where the characters were not learning the information they needed and thus progressing more slowly through the adventure the mnk/clr "Myke" took matters into his own hands. another character left a tavern and Myke noticed somebody (spot ranks) following him out. he tailed the tail (hide & move silently ranks), eavesdropped on a conversation between the other char and the tail (listen ranks) then continued to follow the tail in another direction. he then listened at the door the tail eventually entered and learned lots of vital information that allowed the party to make major progress (including averting the kidnapping of a character, although they don't know that). and the player got some XP the others didn't.

my players also know that they have to use all of their resources to succed in encounters and adventures. characters have died for careless assumptions ("we don't need to check out the barn. let's just attack the wizard in his cottage."), but they have also won big for pushing their characters in nonstandard ways. that's just my style as a DM. whatever your style, i think it is very helpful to let your players know and to work with them in-game and out to achieve a good balance. (although balance isn't always determined by numbers in my opinion.)

 

[CullAfulMoshuN]

The best way to stop players from considering Cha to be the throw away stat to start using it alot in play. Most everyone they meet should be considered either unfriendly or indifferent (depending upon their background). In order for any NPCs not to try and screw the players for eventhing they can or to give the PCs more than a slient stare or curt response to questions, the players must first shift the NPCs disposition to friendly, or even to helpful if the NPC is risking anything (even business) to provide help or information to the PCs. (See NPC attitudes in the DMG)

For eg: PCs walk into an alchemist shop and the owner is immediately seeing dollar signs in front of his eyes, knowing that adventurers generally have lots of money and like to spend it on ridiculous or expensive items. He immediately jacks all his prices 200%, if the PCs get on his good side (make him friendly), he marks it down to the special price of 150% market price just for them. Plus I run haggling as an opposed bluff check, so those PCs with low charisma are going to have a hard time getting his prices down even if they realise he is screwing them over.

 

[Ancalagon]

We roll for our stats, and in our "secondary campain" I play a dwarven fighter/rogue. I had only one low score (I rolled very well) and well, I had to put in in Cha...

And like some others sugested, I used my high int to get more skill points and buy 4 ranks in diplomacy. Not great, but enough to avoid giving offence all the time.

Ancalagon

 

[Corinth]

Charisma isn't a front-line attribute in the default gameplay method, but it isn't that bad. I would define it as a good support or second-line attribute.

As pointed out previously, Charisma opens the door to overcoming challenges in a manner other than bloodshed or the use of magic. This is the key to making full use of the Bard class, and the social skills.

Diplomacy, overall, is a great social skill for it is the skill used to influence people and command their attention. Generals use it to order their troops, inspire them before a battle and congratulate/console them afterwards. Ambassadors use it to lend gravity to their speech, compelling others to heed them. Sovereigns use it for all of these things, while lesser nobles and other authority figures do the same on a lesser scale.

In its place, it is a resource that should not be ignored; one can use force to solve any problem, but it is not the best way to solve all problems. This is truth behind my first post to this thread; kill-crazy PCs with ty CHA scores know that they can use force to solve any problem, while DMs realize that force isn't the best way to do so for all problems.

If DMs were to explain this truth, then the problems of social retards with the Olympic-level bodies will diminish fast.

 

[fba827]

Well, a couple different approaches depending on how far into the campaign you are ....

If you have not even started with this set of characters in discussion, then talk to the players or just make an idle comment about "hmm, all three of you have low Charisma ..." just leave it ominous like that.

If no one considers making any changes then, so be it, let them have the consequences of their decisions.

If already playing and invested into the characters (or if after doing the above) do some of the things mentioned already - some situations are just innapropriate to fight though. And if they do fight through them, well, they'll very quickly be disliked (and not being liked is one aspect of having a low Charisma!).

I'm not saying be an a$$ about it, just make it noticiable. After all, if all three had lousy Strength scores, it would be painfully obvious that they just can't bash things down without some sort of help (okay, a bad anaology, but an anaology none the less)

If you're feeling kind, once you think the players are starting to get the hint that they need some social skills (and I would agree, no one is likley to spend the ever-precious 4-level stat increase on Charisma if that isn't their character's focus) then cut them some slack. Perhaps a magic item that will increase the Charisma for one of them - on a continuous basis rather than a short duration. That, inturn may get at least that one person to invest _some_ skill points in negotiation and such. Yes, it may be feeding them a little extra but as with any other shortcoming a character may have, there are always magic items and such to help compensate (either creating yourself or purchasing, or what not). But, again, this shouldn't even be considered until at least mid-levels and only after the characters have gotten a taste of being poor in the Charisma department.

(My thoughts are scattered right now as I haven't slept, sorry - but going back to the idea of taunting them for their lack of Charisma) - you may also want to introduce them to an NPC with the leadership feat and respective cohort. Might be a nice way to slightly taunt the players with the type of help they COULD have had if they had strong charisma and leadership capabilities (with a small party, a cohort would no doubt be a blessing!)

okay, i'm going to sleep. ZZZzzz...

 

[UD]

Get a PC to take Bluff/Diplomacy and Sense Motive, with a high Cha, once they have used them they will never go back. My players consider them one of the most useful skills to have in my games. I have had characters with low Cha who pretend to be smooth, coming off as an utterly repulsive jerk whos trying to be 'smooth'. The PC was a drow with a Cha of 6 (I rolled a 4) and had this really low husky accent and made innuendo comments all the time. It was a fantastic character. One of my favourite moments was when he was trying to get the price of an item down, heres an extract:

Drow: "How about we shave the price of that down to 4000 gold pieces?"
DM: Roll a charisma check.
Drow: Rolls a natural 1. Looks up at me dirrectly in the eyes, smiles and says "Ya' cu*t"

One final thought about the whole "Force will find a way" idea. There is a blurb in the DMG about high power characters acting with impunity and running roughshod over folks. Basically it tells the DM to remember that there is always a more powerful NPC out there that might take unkindly to that.

This is excellent, I recomend it!

heres another idea to 'hit em where it hurts'; thier reputation. Specifically the partys reputation. Everywhere they go have them hear wild stories about Shazak the Wanderer. He slays tarrasques single handed, he knocks down mountains with his fists, he manages to get money back on his tax return. Whenever the PCs ask about something they've done- "Oh yeah, i may have heard....but anyway I heard Shazak did..."

After a while of this have them meet the guy. An 80 lb nerdy looking guy with a constant wracking cough, but the strongest personality they've ever seen. If they get pissed enough to jump him dont forget the leadership feat should give this guy something like 100+ folllowers.

Most players play to be heroic and recognized as such. If you make that impossible they will look to find what they are doing wrong. This don't work to good alone, but coupled with other methods its a strong one-two punch.

Quite simply, one of the most wonderful ideas I have ever heard. Remember Rule Number One: Never challenge a smiling old man...

 

[Henry]

I think Zerovoid's hit the nail on the head.. Charisma is the least useful stat in the game.

I think the bulk of Sorcerers, Clerics, Bards, and Paladins would disagree.

No matter what the generic NPC's in the game are built like, remember that

1) They are not optimized to the max they can possibly be, and
2) They were written most likely by someone who was not extremely knowledgeable in the rules at the time. If Monte Cook, Skip Williams, or John Tweet typed up those stats in the NPC's of the DMG, and did not assign it to someone else at WotC, I would be very surprised.

You can't get by being a sorcerer or a bard with a low CHA.
You lose half of your good bonuses as a Paladin without a high CHA.
You lose most of your effectiveness as a Bard without a high CHA.
Clerics have a much harder time turning undead without a high CHA.

Just because CHA is not used as a "to hit" bonus by all characters does not make it useless. In a well-rounded game, its usefulness comes to the fore dramatically.

This is not to say that Skill ranks SHOULDN'T be valued more highly than a naturally high CHA. What it means is that in D&D training will always outdistance natural ability, but natural ability supplements it well.

What Razzer's PC's SHOULD be paying for is not having a low CHA, but for putting NOTHING in the social skills. THAT'S where it'll hurt.

 

[BLACKDIRGE]

I have the exact same problem. I have 6 PCs and not one of them has a Charisma over 8. It really hurts them though, they are currently trying to sneak around in RTToEE and bluff the low level minions. Needless to say the highest bluff skill in the party is a net -2. They have yet to bluff anyone successfully, it has actually caused some PC deaths. But what do those players who have had their characters die from not being able to bluff do? they make another character with an 18 str and a 6 dex, go figure.

Dirge

 

[Hecatæus]

Creative descriptions of how their negative CHA affects things would be interesting.

PC: "In order to get the job of bodyguard, I try impress the the princess with tales of my vakliant deeds."
DM "She seems mildly interested in this until you start drooling on yourself."

+_x