Vaalingrade
Legend
Replace Name Level with Jean Shorts level?
D&D General My "Perfect D&D" Would Include...
Smythe the Bard
Explorer
funny, in Basic Dwarf, Elf and Halfling were classes. I played a 5th level hafling once.
Steel_Wind
Legend
I also think that PF2 threads this needle quite well in terms of how it plays, too. So it can be done.
The difficulty arises in terms of character generation. PF2 is certainly more complicated than 5e (that's not exactly hard, is it?). It is nowhere near as complicated as it was with PF1.
But again, different tables will experience different aspects of this in terms of how they play. If they are using a system like Foundry VTT to both create their characters and play, things will be very much easier (and very different) than from somebody whose experience is wholly at the tabletop with pencil and paper in hand.
A couple things not present in the list that I'd like to see are the return of touchAC & possibly iterative/multi-attack penalty.
TouchAC because it's too easy for players to reach AC values that are effectively immune to anything targeting AC
iterative/multi-attack penalty because monsters sit on too narrow of a razor's edge of being too lethal or utterly ineffective as a result while targeting monsters themselves are the same where either they are as defended wet tissue paper with(or without) buckets of hp or an unscalable wall that once again is divided by a razor's edge.
TouchAC because it's too easy for players to reach AC values that are effectively immune to anything targeting AC
iterative/multi-attack penalty because monsters sit on too narrow of a razor's edge of being too lethal or utterly ineffective as a result while targeting monsters themselves are the same where either they are as defended wet tissue paper with(or without) buckets of hp or an unscalable wall that once again is divided by a razor's edge.
Aldarc
Legend
They can be, but it depends on how these aspects interact. People have mentioned Pathfinder 2 as threading this needle, but I would also add that Fantasy AGE, Cypher System, and Worlds Without Number work in a similar "3e options and 5e simplicity" design space, regardless of the respective strengths and weaknesses of each system.
Mercurius
Legend
Well, I'm riffing off of the thread topic, which is a hypothetical "perfect D&D." So why not be idealistic?
But yeah, I haven't really seen a game like that, or at least one that offers both (there are great "D&D-esque" simpler games, and of course very complex ones).
Lanefan
Victoria Rules
Your point #7 above is bang on. Couldn't have said it better.
For point #9, I'd rather just do away with feats altogether; but if they must be kept your idea is solid.
As for points 1-6 and 8? Let's just say I'm glad you're not in charge.
In particular I take issue with point #5 where it seems you want to do away with the zero-to-hero journey, which to me (and backed by the levelling progression in all editions) has always been the basic point of the whole exercise.
Jaeger
That someone better
I'd do this to D&D…
Roll 4d6 drop lowest for a 3-18 range to get the modifier at character creation. Use the modifier Only for the rest of the game.
I like systems where the players have to make relevant choices for their characters. This is something I’d like to see D&D fully embrace. And I believe that it can be done while still being easier for newbies to learn than current 5e.
Actions:
Remove bonus action, everything uses an Action, Free Action or Reaction. You can’t use more than one free action per round. Dual wielding – use your Reaction. Lots of stuff that were bonus action dependent they can now just do with ‘activating’ or if it is a physical extra action – they now need to spend their reaction for it.
I like the idea of universal ranges:
All weapon and spell distances to roughly 5 (melee), 10 (reach), 30 (move, throw), 60 Missile, etc…
Monster more like 4e stat blocks - no having to look up spells or abilities, it’s all in the stat block.
Ditch inspiration. Roll it into Hit Dice. Now the PC’s have to make risk / reward choices to get advantage on a roll now vs. having HD to heal later. One meta mechanic only please…
Ditch skills. Go with Barbarians of Lemuria style Backgrounds/Careers as Skills. 4-5 per PC.
Proficiency is now a type of skill specialization that give adv/disadv. It is now separate from Trained Abilities like: Weapon, Armor, and Language training.
BAB for Melee and Missile attacks makes a comeback.
An encumbrance system that matters – A simple, straightforward, slot-based system that has the PC’s make real choices on what they can actually carry. Bulk and weight of an item are factored into the ENC value now. These are reflected on the character sheets.
Saying “track encumbrance” and the player askes: “Ok, what is the best way to do that?” The response: “Here is a blank sheet of paper, you sort it…” Is the reason why Enc is complete handwavium for most D&D players. Treat them as the subsystems they are, and have the rule referenced on a player facing character sheet that lets them easily engage with the systems of the game.
Spell level and Character level are now synced. Ditch cantrips known – they are now extra spell slots. And a spell slot is a spell slot – no “level” spell slots. You spend spell slots to cast your spells: lvl 1 spell = 1 spell slot to cast. Lvl 3 spell = 3 spell slots to cast, etc… Yes. The entire spell lists would need to be reorganized and rethought from the ground up. But it would be far more straightforward for newbies.
Distinct types of spell lists: Mage (Trad Blast and cast), Drudic (Nature stuff), Sorcery (Summoning things), Miracles (Cleric powers). The classes primarily learn and focus on the spells of their class, but make an in-game way to learn a few spells from others.
A robust and straightforward downtime mechanic, with an easy reference sheet, i.e. blades n the dark. “Wasting time” healing up goes away. There are things like trained abilities, Crafting, and learning new spells that can only be done through downtime. Make engaging in down time actions very desirable for players to reference in play. No more handwavium.
Bring back the dungeon and wilderness exploration timings from B/X. Import a form of the journey rules from AiME for standard A to B non-exploration travel. Any class ability or spell that gives PC’s a “skip” button on these things is excommunicated from the rules! Did I mention straightforward reference sheets for the PC’s and GM’s?
Feats are gone. Subclasses are gone. Multiclass gone.
Class Abilities: IMHO one of the more iffy parts of the game. It adds complexity but you make no meaningful choices for character progression after 3rd level. Added complexity with less PC choices is not good design IMHO.
I think that this can be smoothed out without going to the total featapalooza direction that PF2 has gone in.
At level one you get around 3 Starting Class abilities. Roughly every three levels you get to choose an new General class ability from around 20 different options.
PCs will end up with 3ish starting + 7 General abilities on a 1-20 level spread. With this system player’s have actual choices when they level up. Yet they never get to be so many that you need a spreadsheet just to keep track. This also makes it possible for there to be several PC's of the same class in a party and still have them feel different in play. And yes, character abilities will need to be re-made from the ground up for each class.
Between new class abilities, Career/skill points, ASI, and new proficiencies - There are plenty of things to pass out over 20 levels for players to always get something as you level up.
In the wailing and gnashing of teeth category:
Now we are to the one adjustment I’d make that many D&D fans would have serious issues with…
Now that I have made HD the game meta mechanic – we can ease up on the built-in meta mechanic that is HP bloat.
The ‘sweet spot’ for most D&D games seems to be lvls 4-10. I’d simply tune for that sweet spot for 20 levels of play.
Stop all HP progression at lvl 6. All other level increases occur as normal. So the characters get more powerful, yet still retain a certain vulnerability to threats.
I’d also narrow the range of HD for the classes: d8, Casters and Bards, d10 Fighters, Rogues and Clerics, and d12 for Barabrians
This flattens the math making it things far more streamlined as the designers no longer have to deal with the scaling issues that HP inflation has always brought to the game.
These are the Cliff-Notes and I can expound on how they can work in play.
And of course, I would have some rules for the PC’s to create traps for the bigger and tougher monsters in the MM.
Roll 4d6 drop lowest for a 3-18 range to get the modifier at character creation. Use the modifier Only for the rest of the game.
I like systems where the players have to make relevant choices for their characters. This is something I’d like to see D&D fully embrace. And I believe that it can be done while still being easier for newbies to learn than current 5e.
Actions:
Remove bonus action, everything uses an Action, Free Action or Reaction. You can’t use more than one free action per round. Dual wielding – use your Reaction. Lots of stuff that were bonus action dependent they can now just do with ‘activating’ or if it is a physical extra action – they now need to spend their reaction for it.
I like the idea of universal ranges:
All weapon and spell distances to roughly 5 (melee), 10 (reach), 30 (move, throw), 60 Missile, etc…
Monster more like 4e stat blocks - no having to look up spells or abilities, it’s all in the stat block.
Ditch inspiration. Roll it into Hit Dice. Now the PC’s have to make risk / reward choices to get advantage on a roll now vs. having HD to heal later. One meta mechanic only please…
Ditch skills. Go with Barbarians of Lemuria style Backgrounds/Careers as Skills. 4-5 per PC.
Proficiency is now a type of skill specialization that give adv/disadv. It is now separate from Trained Abilities like: Weapon, Armor, and Language training.
BAB for Melee and Missile attacks makes a comeback.
An encumbrance system that matters – A simple, straightforward, slot-based system that has the PC’s make real choices on what they can actually carry. Bulk and weight of an item are factored into the ENC value now. These are reflected on the character sheets.
Saying “track encumbrance” and the player askes: “Ok, what is the best way to do that?” The response: “Here is a blank sheet of paper, you sort it…” Is the reason why Enc is complete handwavium for most D&D players. Treat them as the subsystems they are, and have the rule referenced on a player facing character sheet that lets them easily engage with the systems of the game.
Spell level and Character level are now synced. Ditch cantrips known – they are now extra spell slots. And a spell slot is a spell slot – no “level” spell slots. You spend spell slots to cast your spells: lvl 1 spell = 1 spell slot to cast. Lvl 3 spell = 3 spell slots to cast, etc… Yes. The entire spell lists would need to be reorganized and rethought from the ground up. But it would be far more straightforward for newbies.
Distinct types of spell lists: Mage (Trad Blast and cast), Drudic (Nature stuff), Sorcery (Summoning things), Miracles (Cleric powers). The classes primarily learn and focus on the spells of their class, but make an in-game way to learn a few spells from others.
A robust and straightforward downtime mechanic, with an easy reference sheet, i.e. blades n the dark. “Wasting time” healing up goes away. There are things like trained abilities, Crafting, and learning new spells that can only be done through downtime. Make engaging in down time actions very desirable for players to reference in play. No more handwavium.
Bring back the dungeon and wilderness exploration timings from B/X. Import a form of the journey rules from AiME for standard A to B non-exploration travel. Any class ability or spell that gives PC’s a “skip” button on these things is excommunicated from the rules! Did I mention straightforward reference sheets for the PC’s and GM’s?
Feats are gone. Subclasses are gone. Multiclass gone.
Class Abilities: IMHO one of the more iffy parts of the game. It adds complexity but you make no meaningful choices for character progression after 3rd level. Added complexity with less PC choices is not good design IMHO.
I think that this can be smoothed out without going to the total featapalooza direction that PF2 has gone in.
At level one you get around 3 Starting Class abilities. Roughly every three levels you get to choose an new General class ability from around 20 different options.
PCs will end up with 3ish starting + 7 General abilities on a 1-20 level spread. With this system player’s have actual choices when they level up. Yet they never get to be so many that you need a spreadsheet just to keep track. This also makes it possible for there to be several PC's of the same class in a party and still have them feel different in play. And yes, character abilities will need to be re-made from the ground up for each class.
Between new class abilities, Career/skill points, ASI, and new proficiencies - There are plenty of things to pass out over 20 levels for players to always get something as you level up.
In the wailing and gnashing of teeth category:
Now we are to the one adjustment I’d make that many D&D fans would have serious issues with…
Now that I have made HD the game meta mechanic – we can ease up on the built-in meta mechanic that is HP bloat.
The ‘sweet spot’ for most D&D games seems to be lvls 4-10. I’d simply tune for that sweet spot for 20 levels of play.
Stop all HP progression at lvl 6. All other level increases occur as normal. So the characters get more powerful, yet still retain a certain vulnerability to threats.
I’d also narrow the range of HD for the classes: d8, Casters and Bards, d10 Fighters, Rogues and Clerics, and d12 for Barabrians
This flattens the math making it things far more streamlined as the designers no longer have to deal with the scaling issues that HP inflation has always brought to the game.
These are the Cliff-Notes and I can expound on how they can work in play.
And of course, I would have some rules for the PC’s to create traps for the bigger and tougher monsters in the MM.
Clint_L
Hero
Wouldn't it then make sense to just play DCC?
CreamCloud0
One day, I hope to actually play DnD.
thoughts on the things i voted for (and some on the ones i specifically didn't vote for)
Things i do not want:
i think alignment is a great concept with a bad rep from misuse and misunderstanding, as well as being a quick and easy summary of your character's values and methods it's interesting for informing how npcs both divine and mortal might react differenly to you based on your respective alignments, i think there ought to be more mechanical systems that are affected by alignment so that your character action choices have an actual influence on more things (but not penalties for changing/going against your alignment, it's descriptive not prescriptive)
this means like herbalism kit or disguse kit right? EDIT: after reading tetrasodiums response on what kits actually are i still want these
more character build choices? definitely, also ties into the fact i didn't vote for multiclassing so this is my chosen method for getting cross-class abilites
giving classes a clear purpose in how they're meant to contribute is good for building them to be effective
people deserve choices
the AEDU system was actually good you guys
martials should be allowed to be cool without requiring magic
simple, yet effective, however also, have stacking bonuses
20 levels is enough
lots of species to choose from is good, but that doesn't mean you need to be using them all at the same time
i struggle to understand how combat would work without it considering basically everything has a range/area
depth in challenges is good
assuming exploration rules are included in this too
they're good
more customisation options are always better
just my preference of the options
simple but effective
variety is the spice of life
see feats
see feats again, this time because it you get to face the same monsters with different flavour
unexpected items can be interesting
a generic floating +2, +1, is flavourless and bland, i'd rather have the mechanics support the fiction/lore, i know they're not the only contributor but i think they still matter as a contributor, you can already play any species/class combination floating modifiers doesn't 'unlock' any options for you unless you care more about optimisation over narrative
species is a sorely underwhelming contributor to building your character, it deserves to be more impactful
Things i do not want:
honestly i think multiclassing is overly complicated and too prone to being exploited by powergamers
just no, get back in line you jumped up nerd, i honestly think they should be a utility/support class with minimal offensive magics, we have enough offensive magic classes.
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