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My @!@#! Player abusing Feather Fall

I'll also add this concession - everybody plays a different game. I like using minis, battlemats, and tactics, but I generally only use them as an extension of gamplay, not as a replacement of gameplay. I prefer rules lite - by reviewing some of the thread, it seems that most of the posters were rules heavy. The distillation of my advice was basically that as a DM one should keep the rules that work and discard the (optional or difficult) rules that don't. Keep in mind, there are plenty of DMs that don't use AoO because they find it too cumbersome. Huh, guess maybe I'm in the middle, then...
 

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kenobi65 said:
As others have already pointed out, it sounds like he's absolutely misusing Feather Fall.



Where is his "freefalling object"? You can't just cast Feather Fall on yourself if you're not in freefall.

Believe it or not, he dropped a pebble or bat guano.

Serious. When things looked a little scary. He would grab a rock from the ground or use a pebble from his spell component bag. Retrieving components from the bag is a free action; so it dropping something.

It went like this:

Retrieve a components (free action)
Drop it (free action)
Cast Feather Fall on dropping component (free action)
Get hit or missed by arrows or whatever.
Move and cast spell.

After we went through this a few times I just shrugged and gave up on it. It seems to be legal and possible to get something airborne whenever your want.

He also considered casting Feather Fall on incoming arrows, for the arrows are released before the spell is finished (readied action, after all), but that's just too absurd. Arrows are, after all, free-falling. They are also moving horizontally at a good clip. But this I nixed. Just too, too silly, and anyway the target of the spell has to be known as the spell BEGINS to be cast -- not a millisecond after. Is what I ruled.
 

azmodean said:
I have to say good on the player/character. IMO this a good tactic, though I think the spell itself should be lvl 1. It seems that, from the footnote in the concentration skill, you cannot be disrupted by a readied action if your action takes less time than 1 action. However, here is the definition of the ready action:


This says nothing about a quickened action not triggering a readied action. It looks like if you ready an attack contingent on "target casting a spell", and the target casts a spell as a swift action, then the readied attack triggers, BUT the action is too fast and is not subject to being interrupted. The target can then proceed to cast another, regular speed spell unmolested.

Actually, the reason it is not disrupted is not because it is very quick.

"Then, any time before your next action, you may take the readied action in response to that condition. The action occurs just before the action that triggers it. If the triggered action is part of another character's activities, you interrupt the other character."

This does NOT state that the action goes AFTER a swift action, it states it goes before it.
This does NOT state that the action does NOT interrupt the other character's action if the trigger is a swift action.

When combined with the Concentration rule:

"Distraction: Damaged during the action.²
Footnote:
²Such as during the casting of a spell with a casting time of 1 round or more, or the execution of an activity that takes more than a single full-round action (such as Disable Device). Also, damage stemming from an attack of opportunity or readied attack made in response to the spell being cast (for spells with a casting time of 1 action) or the action being taken (for activities requiring no more than a full-round action)."

According to this, you do go before the Quickened spell, you do interrupt that spell, but any damage you do does not force a concentration roll.

When combined with the normal rules, this is a little bogus in that you cannot disrupt a quickened spell with damage. You can interrupt it, but the damage is irrelevant unless you do enough damage to make the character go unconscious, in which case the quickened spell does not happen.

azmodean said:
On the other hand, I will now be allowing PCs and NPCs to make a bluff check (opposed by either sense motive or spellcraft, whichever has a higher bonus) to convince others that they are casting a spell. Those with improved feint can do so as a move-equivalent action.

Course, without Improved Feint, it is typically irrelevant. You can feint and cast a swift spell, but you cannot feint and cast a one action spell (without Improved Feint).
 

One quick note: Unless I'm missreading something, the Improved Feint lets you "Feint in Combat", which, under the Bluff skill description, has its own little description:

Feinting in Combat: You can also use Bluff to mislead an opponent in melee combat (so that it can’t dodge your next attack effectively). To feint, make a Bluff check opposed by your target’s Sense Motive check, but in this case, the target may add its base attack bonus to the roll along with any other applicable modifiers.
If your Bluff check result exceeds this special Sense Motive check result, your target is denied its Dexterity bonus to AC (if any) for the next melee attack you make against it. This attack must be made on or before your next turn.

They way I'm reading it is that, with Improved Feint, you may Feint In Combat as a move action, which, if successful, denies your opponent his Dexterity Modifier. Improved Feint doesn't let you use the Bluff skill as a move action, only the Feint In Combat option of said skill.

AR
 


Patryn of Elvenshae said:
So, you *can* ready an action against a free action. That invalidates your earlier assessment that you couldn't ready an action against a spell cast as a free action.

No, what I'm saying is you *can* ready an action against what ever the hell you want, but, in the case of a free action, said ready action can't be completed in time to actually disrupt the action that was supposed to initiate the readied action.

Ex.

Archer: "I ready an action to shoot him if he speaks a word"
Wizard: "Abraxas..."
Archer's bow: "p'toing!"
Wizard: "Ungh!"

AR
 

Altamont Ravenard said:
No, what I'm saying is you *can* ready an action against what ever the hell you want, but, in the case of a free action, said ready action can't be completed in time to actually disrupt the action that was supposed to initiate the readied action.

Ex.

Archer: "I ready an action to shoot him if he speaks a word"
Wizard: "Abraxas..."
Archer's bow: "p'toing!"
Wizard: "Ungh!"

This is incorrect as per the definition of readied actions. They always interrupt the action. The results of the interruption, however, does not always prevent the action.

Archer: "I ready an action to shoot him if he speaks a word"
Wizard: ""
Archer's bow: "p'toing!"
Wizard: "Ungh!"
Wizard: "Abraxas..."

It does not make logical sense, but that is how the rule reads.
 

Heh. "hi!" or whatever should be a first level spell, but that's actually pretty clever.

Second, you rely way to much on readied actions to stop spellcasting; this is probably why the player does this. Your "25 points per arrow" archer could easily have outright killed the wizard; why was he wasting his time readying actions?

If you're that determined to stop the wizard from casting spells, just put a dedicated grappler in every fight.
 

Altamont Ravenard said:
No, what I'm saying is you *can* ready an action against what ever the hell you want, but, in the case of a free action, said ready action can't be completed in time to actually disrupt the action that was supposed to initiate the readied action.

What you said earlier:

AR said:
I think the rules support the fact that you cannot ready an action against a Quickened Spell.

So, you've changed your mind. You *can* ready an action against a Quickened Spell, you just can't disrupt it.

I'll complete your example:

Archer: "I ready an action to shoot him if he speaks a word"
Wizard: "Abraxas..."
Archer's bow: "p'toing!"
Wizard: "Ungh! Fool - you've wasted your only shot! Calabraxes mordag!"
Archer: *dissolves in a puddle of goo*
 

Ok, maybe this will help?

It MAY seem like metagaming, but let's just replace the "I ready an action to shoot if he casts a spell" with "I ready an action to shoot if he comes through the door"

Now, if you got shot once or twice as you came through a door, I'd think it would be pretty sensible to duck your head out and back quickly to see if anyone shoots at you. Apparently, every cop or action hero in any movie ever made agrees with me. Faking the spellcasting is pretty much the same as faking going through the door. Not metagaming, just good tactics.
I don't even see why he'd need to actually cast a spell. Unless those archers have at least one rank in spellcraft, there is NO reason why they should be able to differentiate a fkae spell from a real spell. Heck, even to a practiced spellcaster, I'm make them roll a sense motive or spellcraft check vs the casters bluff check... a 20 INT guy would probably fake movements pretty similar to those of the spell for jus that reason.

He still ends up getting shot though...not the GREATEST tactic i've heard of?
 

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