My @!@#! Player abusing Feather Fall

[Kast]

This is a good tactic, using a Quickened spell to trick that ready action. However, if there was no Featherfall spell the caster would normally have to have quicken spell and burn a 4th level spell to make it work. Since that's such a disparity in levels, I would make Featherfall an exception (it already is really) and rule that it is cast so quickly that it doesn't trigger the "if he casts a spell . . ." ready action. To go with this, I certainly wouldn't allow a cantrip that is cast as a free action to do it either. I'd give the player back his research costs and tell him you made a mistake -- if he researched it just for this purpose.

 

[shilsen]

Slightly off topic, but I am just curious... Those who feel this tactic is metagaming...

In a campaign I play in, I often purposely provoke AoOs (I have mobility so it is unlikely I will get hit) so that the large minotaur in our group can make grapple attempts w/o being provoked himself and thus negating the grapple attempt. The minotaur obviously has the size and strength for the grapple, but a low AC so will often get disrupted, which is why I "bait" the opponent and provoke for him. Am I metagaming? Bare in mind, the opponent may have Combat Reflexes and I would not be aware of that, so this tactic doesn't work 100% of the time. But still, would ya'll considering that metagaming?

No, that isn't metagaming, but just intelligent tactical thinking. As is often the case in D&D, a great part of the perception lies in the description:

EXAMPLE1

Player1: My PC walks past the orc to draw an AoO.
Player2: Cool! That means my PC can try to grapple without the orc getting an AoO on him.
DM: You metagaming little *#$!*)#

EXAMPLE2

Player1: Maelwyn selflessly moves into a seemingly disadvantageous position, trying to tempt the orc into attacking him, so that Bessie the minotaur can attack with less danger to herself.

Player2: Bessie seizes the opportunity presented by Maelwyn's tactic and attempts to grab the distracted orc in her muscular arms.

DM: Nice thinking! The orc swings unsuccessfully at Maelwyn and is unable to pull its battleaxe back into position quickly enough to disrupt Bessie's atack.

...

Both of the examples are exactly the same situation, but one sounds a whole lot more like metagaming than the other. But it isn't.

 

[Staffan]

archer fires and then retreats if he didn't take down the wizard.

or ducks behind cover.

or just moves.

the archer can still act.

he has just moved his position in the init order by readying.

I think you're confusing "Ready action" with "Delay".

"Delay" means you sit around and wait. At any later point, you can re-enter the initiative order and take any full action you want (as long as it's something you can do normally), but you can't interrupt anyone.

"Ready action" is more active. When readying an action, you specify a trigger and an action you're going to take if that trigger happens. The action in a ready action can only be a standard action, not a full round's worth of actions (though you get the move action when starting to ready).

 

[drnuncheon]

This is incorrect as per the definition of readied actions. They always interrupt the action. The results of the interruption, however, does not always prevent the action.

This, too, causes problems. The interrupts are resolved before the triggering action - that doesn't mean they begin before the triggering action. In other words, the triggering action is not atomic - it can be divided (in this case only).

Archer: "I ready an action to shoot him if he speaks a word"
Wizard: "Ab-"
Archer's bow: "p'toing!"
Wizard: "Ungh!"
Wizard: "-raxas..."

 

[drnuncheon]

No, he created a spell to ensure that his next spell cannot get disrupted.

Sure it can. Just not by someone readying an action to 'attack when he casts a spell'.

Irrelevant. When combined with Protection From Arrows or Mirror Image (and even without them), this is a combo that basically negates a game mechanic and it does it against multiple opponents simultaneously.

I'd say protection from arrows does that by itself. BAN IT!

Sorry, I am immune to spell disruption by Readied Actions because I found a loophole in the rules.

...except you're not. At least, I don't see anything limiting you to 'I ready my shot for when he casts a spell'.

Sorry, I am immune to spell disruption by Attacks of Opportunities because I found a loophole in the rules.

Yeah, we should ban Combat Casting.

I would have no problem with it being a 4th level spell, the earliest you can Quicken a 0th level spell.

You realize that by this logic, an unquickened feather fall must be a -3rd level spell.

J

 

[KarinsDad]

It's pretty much the same situation (give or take, well, a lot). In real life, people will fake an offensive move, thus triggering an action to block that offensive move from the defender, and then take the REAL offensive move before the defending player can get back into position to defend again.

It's not metagaming at all to play this way, using tactics, expecting a readied action to block your attack, and fake that attack to trigger the readied defense before taking the real attack action.

If it can happen in real life, then it just isn't metagaming at all for it to happen in the game.

Thank you for proving the opposite of what you intended to prove.

In real life, even if you attempt to fake out the defender, sometimes he STILL blocks the shot.

That is the reason the archers get a to hit roll. That is the reason the Wizard gets a Concentration roll.

Some of the to hit rolls miss sometimes. Some of the time, all of the to hit rolls miss. Some of the time, the Concentration roll gets made.


The difference between the game example and your example is that the Wizard GUARANTEES that he will still make his shot (shy of going below 1 hit point, but this tactic wouldn't be used if the Wizard was on low hit points), no matter WHO the defender is. The best archer in the world and the Wizard 100% all of the times makes sure that the spell is not interrupted.

Hence, the reason it is metagaming. Making yourself immune to a gaming possibility merely because of how the rules are written. It doesn't happen in basketball, it shouldn't happen in the game.

Thanks for your help. Our side of this position could not have done it without you.

 

[Pbartender]

Believe it or not, he dropped a pebble or bat guano.

Serious. When things looked a little scary. He would grab a rock from the ground or use a pebble from his spell component bag. Retrieving components from the bag is a free action; so it dropping something.

It went like this:

Retrieve a components (free action)
Drop it (free action)
Cast Feather Fall on dropping component (free action)
Get hit or missed by arrows or whatever.
Move and cast spell.

After we went through this a few times I just shrugged and gave up on it. It seems to be legal and possible to get something airborne whenever your want.

It is not legal. You need to start checking your rulebooks.

Preparing a material component is only a free action if you are using it as a component for a spell your are casting. So, it is a free action to pull bat guano out of your spell component pouch when you cast a Fireball. Bat guano is NOT a component for a Feather Fall spell, it would be the target. Therefore, it is a Move Action that provokes an Attack of Opportunity, when ever he pulls out bat guano to drop.

The round should look more like (assuming the enemy wins initiate, or the wizard delays his action to take advantage):

• Enemy fighters charge wizard, and possibly deal damage.
• Enemy archers prepare a readied action to shot him with arrows if he casts a spell.
• Wizard retrieves a stored item (move action).
• Wizard gets hit or missed by Attacks of Opportunity.
• Wizard drops it (free action).
• Wizard makes a Concentration check to cast Feather Fall or take more AoOs (give those fighters Combat Reflexes).
• Wizard casts Feather Fall on dropping item, if he made the Concentration Check (free action).
• Wizard gets hit or missed by readied attacks.
• Wizard can now move or cast a spell (making another Concentration check to avoid AoOs).

Doesn't like look quite so good a tactic, that way, does it?

He also considered casting Feather Fall on incoming arrows, for the arrows are released before the spell is finished (readied action, after all), but that's just too absurd. Arrows are, after all, free-falling. They are also moving horizontally at a good clip. But this I nixed. Just too, too silly, and anyway the target of the spell has to be known as the spell BEGINS to be cast -- not a millisecond after. Is what I ruled.

The Feather Fall spell description outlaws it anyway...

"This spell has no special effect on ranged weapons unless they are falling quite a distance."

 

[KarinsDad]

Yeah, we should ban Combat Casting.

Last I heard, Combat Casting does not make you immune to spell failure for taking damage. Guess you must be playing a different rule set than the rest of us.

You realize that by this logic, an unquickened feather fall must be a -3rd level spell.

Hardly. You must be using that darn advanced math again.


The point of this entire issue is not that what the player did was illegal. Nobody is arguing that the action was illegal. But, not all legal game actions are also non-abusive and non-exploitive.

In this case, the player exploited the rules beyond where some DMs draw the line. You might not draw the line there, but I would think that most DMs at least have a line drawn somewhere.

There are a lot of ways to increase your AC (cover or spells) or increase your Concentration chance (Combat Casting or Skill Focus) without resorting to tricking your DM into allowing you to have a swift 0th level spell to exploit a rules loophole. IMO.


With regard to the "using Feather Fall" to get the same effect, I would rule as DM that you are using too many free actions "during another action" (free actions are taken during other actions, not outside of them). One free action to pull out the bat guano, one free action to drop it, and one swift action to cast Feather Fall on it. Limit it to two free actions per move or standard action and this tactic disappears since you cannot simultaneously cast Feather Fall while casting another spell and not have both possibly be disrupted by the readied arrows.

 

[KarinsDad]

This, too, causes problems. The interrupts are resolved before the triggering action - that doesn't mean they begin before the triggering action. In other words, the triggering action is not atomic - it can be divided (in this case only).

Archer: "I ready an action to shoot him if he speaks a word"
Wizard: "Ab-"
Archer's bow: "p'toing!"
Wizard: "Ungh!"
Wizard: "-raxas..."

It can be viewed this way. But the important point with regard to game mechanics is that a swift spell or a free action can be interrupted via a readied action. This could be important if the target goes unconscious.

A swift spell does not require a Concentration roll if the caster takes damage, but if he goes unconscious, the spell is not cast and in fact is lost (or at least that is how I would rule it, I doubt there is actually a rule on it).

But, there are also situations where it does not matter. If the free action is to drop your weapon, regardless of getting hit with an arrow, you still drop your weapon.

 

[AuraSeer]

Any archer who readies an attack contingent on spellcasting IS metagaming.

Any sane non-metagaming archer knows that a single arrow can kill a human opponent, or at least hurt him a lot and disrupt his ability to concentrate with the arrow sticking in him.

Nonsense. You're confusing the gameworld with the real world.
In the gameworld, where that archer has lived his whole life, a single arrow usually can't kill any significant opponent. If he has ever seen a combat before, he knows that lots of powerful enemies can survive multiple arrow shots. That's how his world works, and he'd have to be really stupid not to notice.

The reason people stay standing is irrelevant. Even though the archer knows nothing about "hit points" or "combat rounds" or any of those game terms, he does know that shooting one arrow is unlikely to kill anybody except a defenseless commoner. It's perfectly reasonable for him to act based on that knowledge.