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My @!@#! Player abusing Feather Fall

Example suggestion-
GM- "The archers look to be waiting for something on."

X- "Cast the finger at them."

GM <dice rattle and consulted>

X- "What do they do?"

GM- "They seem to be waiting for something and ignore the finger."

X <head scratching> "cast fireball at them-"

GM <dice rattle and consulted> "they shoot you. Readied action. Spell craft skill made so they know what spell you were casting."

X <looking bewildered>

Just a suggestion. Good luck with the player.
 

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Throughout this whole discussion, I've not seen one post as to why the wizard/player does not cast defensively instead of doing the whole bluff thing.

Most wizards who intend to be casting in combat have a good Concentration score (purely on ranks, they normally have them maxed out).

Since there was no mention of the wizard's level, let us assume they are 5th (fireball available).

Two wizards, average stats except for INT. Both wish to cast Fireball without AOO.

Wizard 1: maxed out Concentration (8 ranks). Requires a 10 on his Concentration roll to avoid AOO. Will not take any damage from the casting.

Wizard 2: uses this tactic. Requires nothing to avoid AOO for his fireball. Will take damage from the casting (the first spell draws out the attacks).

Neither seems to have a decided advantage above the other. To make himself "immune" to the damage from the arrows, Wizard 2 is going to need Protection from Arrows, Stoneskin, or some other DR spell. He is using another spell to make the plan work. With these spells he could just cast away, draw AOOs, take no damage, and cast safely after a basic Concentration check of DC10.

Of course if he has no concentration, Wizard 2 needs some other way to avoid the problem (hence the tactic).

The tactic in and of itself is great. Any trained, intelligent wizard would weigh up his chances and decide what to do.

What I don't agree about this tactic is:
* a 0-level spell should not have this ability.
* In and of itself the spell was harmless (at initial appearance), however the DM obviously didn't think far enough ahead along the chain of thought that the player had.
* <sarcasm>Congratulations to the player for tricking his DM</sarcasm>.

Instead of removing/banning the cantrip, the DM should just state that "no cantrip may cause a significant distraction that a season combatant will be affected". That way the player gets his "Screw U" spell, but doesn't gain the benefit he had envisioned.

As for the Feather Fall replacement idea, the guy isn't falling, so my personal DM ruling would be "I'm sorry but you're not falling so its trigger has not been met". He can of course go and expend a quickened 1st level spell, or use a metamagic rod or what have you. But he's going to have to use resources to make it work. That would achieve a nice synergy - give and take - about the tactic. Make up for the benefit of the standard Wizard.

As to the topic of metagaming: everyone does it at some stage. Even the DM, inherently, is metagaming when he states that all his trained combatants know to hold for Wizards. What is a wizard in his world? Do they all wear Point Hats of Wizardry (TM)? How do they know it is a wizard?

For example in one region of my world, Wizardry is highly stylised and training is accomplished in government sanctioned guilds. Wizards must wear a specific outfit in public and wouldn't be seen dead in anything else. The advantages to this are the fear factor. Most people who recognise the robes are in awe of the wizard. Of course it makes them a target as well. However other regions do not have these regulations, so a wizard could dress as a stable boy and no one would figure it out until the first fireball was launched.

I can sympathise with KarinsDad when he argues that it is metagaming because it is a way to avoid all the perils of spell casting, however to avoid them all the Wizard would need at least 3 spells cast: the 0-level, the spell he wants to cast, a defensive spell (Protection from Arrows).

To the DM, there have been many solutions given out as to how you can "screw" the player for his methods.

My suggestion is to simply not allow Feather Fall to qualify for the quickened casting effect unless he is actually falling, and ruling that all 0-level spells can't distract people. This way, he is going to have to use some other spell to pull off his tactic. You are not negating his tactics this way, you are encouraging clever play, however you are setting a price to pay for bypassing rules and tricking the DM. The price here is either a metamagic rod or a quickened 1st level spell.

D
 

dvvega said:
Throughout this whole discussion, I've not seen one post as to why the wizard/player does not cast defensively instead of doing the whole bluff thing.

Because casting defensively only prevents you from provoking an AoO. It does not help you at all against an archer with a readied action.
 

Please forgive me if this has been mentioned already, but I don't have the desire, nor even the stomach to wade through a couple of pages of posts about this. Frankly I would rather metaphorically gouge out my eyes than tranverse a sea of complaints of metagaming that don't really work towards solving the situtation.

"two" could just make the problem go away by not crutching so hard on a given game mechanic. It would seem that the player in question, and frankly the character, would seem to be doing what they are in direct response to how the GM is running the NPCs. So if the NPCs don't put so much emphasis on readying and keying on spellcasters (how they determine who is the spellcaster of course is an interesting question, at least until the PCs start casting).

Another thing that is possible is that the spell in question get moved from 0 level up to somewhere near 4th level where it belongs. Featherfall is where it is for two specific reasons, which are really only one: "legacy". For Featherfall to be functional in game mechanics it needs to be fast. Pre-3ed it was an oddity of a spell. Then 3e came along with Quicken metamagic. Because of this I suggest that Featherfall is a very poor benchmark for gauging level slotting of Quickened spells. Given that Quicken normally moves a spell up 4 levels. So this is a relatively low powered effects spell, so maybe you could argue it is only 3rd level. But I'd be hard pressed to lower it past there.

Now the PC will be burning a 3rd level spell to produce the same effect. If two can't live with that, then I suggest two might just be crying sour grapes over being outsmarted by a [immature?] player.

To adjust the spell level midstream two is going to have to swallow a bit of pride and humbly admit to making a mistake in originally assigning the level to the spell during design. There will be a small shattering of disbelief, but if two is in fact the mature one here (implied by labeling the player immature) he'll have to lead the way and smooth it through.

EDIT: P.S. The best solution in my mind is for both of these to be done. That two eases up on the use of readying and that the spell level be adjusted to where it likely should have been to start with.
 

I’ve had a similar issue; this is how I resolved it…

Player casts suspect spell…

DM – “As the spell goes off, you are besieged by an almighty headache”

Player – “What the…”

DM – “Make a Knowledge (Arcana) check”

Player – “I got a 14”

DM – “You are not sure why…”

Later that session, the Player casts the spell again…

DM – “Again, you assailed by a migraine. You also take 1 point of damage from it and Concentration checks are at -2…”

Player – “What the…”

DM – “Make a Knowledge (Arcana) check”

Player – “I got a 17”

DM – “You think the spell is overtaxing your body when you cast it; if you were to memorise it at the next level up, it might resolve the issue…”

Player refuses to memorise and cast the spell at a higher level. When next he casts it…

DM – “The pain in your head is phenomenal. You are bleeding from the nose and ears. You take 4 points of damage and all mental skills are at -2; this includes Concentration and all Int, Wis and Cha skills”

Player – “Awww, come on… what gives…”

DM – “The spell is obviously too powerful to be contained at that level… you were able to control the negative affects for a while, but your grasp is slipping…”

Player starts memorising and casting it at the next level up…
 

I like that in-game explaination Psimancer.

However I get the sense that two will have to go OOC before or after to help explain that this is being done because he made a mistake, not just because the player is being punished for the tactic (which BTW i think was a very creative responce to a presented problem). Without doing that the player is very likely going to feel screwed over.

Of course two will have to beleive this instead of just having a hate-on for the player, which he seems to have right now. Of course that hate could be based in fustration of being thwarted. Or there could be other baggage issues that we can't see directly because we haven't been sitting at the table with them. vbmenu_register("postmenu_1987994", true);
 

Sullivan, I agreed. While I don’t have an issue with the tactic that the player has employed, I do have an issue with the deception he has (possibly) engaged in to achieve it. Personally, I feel the player has done himself an injustice, as his DM will no longer trust anything he tries to bring into the game. If the tactic was discovered after the fact, then the player really shouldn’t have a problem with the adjustment.
 

It's so hard to say what one means...

First off, in response to those people that think I'm "readying" actions every single round.

I'm not, I never claimed to be doing so, and I won't in the future.

ON AVERAGE I USE A "READIED" ACTION PERHAPS ONCE EVERY OTHER BATTLE.

I realize this is a lot more than other GM's. But not something that has the players rolling their eyes ("oh that old thing again").

To the GM that has NEVER had an archer, even once in their campaign, "ready" a shot vs. a spellcaster -- that statement pretty much tells me all I need to know. It's like saying "oh, I've never had a monster take an AOO vs. a PC" or "I've never thrown a spellcaster against a party of PCs". It seems clear to me that the game is less fun and less interesting if you remove obvious tactical ploys like "readying" a spell interrupt action, which can be very effective. "can be." Scare quotes. Given my situation.

There are a number of related issues here. Those that say casually "oh I never bother having an archer ready a shot; the wizard just will see it and get cover and then cast a spell." That assumes a bunch of stuff, most importantly: that it's OBVIOUS when somebody is readying an action. This is not covered in the rules. Do you require the archer to be staring directly at the wizard? What if the archer wants to NOT stare at the wizard but still ready an action? What if the archer simply has an unknown initiative count (to the wizard); what's the difference between a delaying archer staring at a wizard and an archer with a readied action staring at the wizard? I can go on but won't. You assume a lot if you automatelly divulge when enemies are readying and against whom and on what trigger. How are PC's supposed to figure this out, really?

Another rules fuzziness; you CAN explicitely ready a spell interrupt with no ranks of spellcraft and no roll required. You just know a spell is being cast; it's obvious (or something). Will a Fighter4 know the difference bewteen a free action cantrip, feather fall, or glitterdust, within the first millisecond of its casting? IF so, that's one hell of an insightful archer. That's what a lot of people are suggesting, "just have the readied archers wait out the free action spell and hit 'em on the second one." I'm all for making a PC's life difficult, but this beggers the imagination. It's like a Western gunfight, and you are telling one of the gunslingers to "just let him draw and pull the trigger of his revolver, it's probably empty, but when he whips out that pistol, nail him". ? I just can't see a fighter4 20 year old in the middle of combat vs. a wizard of uncertain abilities somehow "waiting out" a free action spell. It's spell. It's what he was waiting for. He fires. Am I nuts?

If anyone can give me a better justification for waiting it out besides "use archers with a lot of spellcraft" (LOADS of them about, and coming across scads of those won't be repetitive will it?) I'd be grateful.

To repeat, I took away the cantrip, and am allowing him to burn Feather Falls when he wants to do this trick. I'll have to enfore the "target" aspect of FF better; probalby the Wizard will start dropping pebbles as somebody already suggested.

I'm not a playa-hata (ha ha, gotta love that stupid phrase). Player X and I have a good time together; he yanks my chain plenty. It seems to make the game more fun for him.

But I am going to use methods to get around his "trick" whenever feasible and reasonable in-game. I'm not going to have animals or undead suddenly "readying" stuff. That's just retarded.

My main point is this: I think spellcasters have it very easy in d&d. Lots of ways to get a spell off, even in dangerous circumstances (5' step is just gravy). I'm irritated that one of the last remaining ways to accomplish this, which is open to a commoner, is now gone (readying an action). Am I just being a baby?

Vote aye, or nay, and I'll be outta here.
 
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two said:
My main point is this: I think spellcasters have it very easy in d&d. Lots of ways to get a spell off, even in dangerous circumstances (5' step is just gravy). I'm irritated that one of the last remaining ways to accomplish this, which is open to a commoner, is now gone (readying an action). Am I just being a baby?

Vote aye, or nay, and I'll be outta here.

I vote that you are venting, which sounds a lot alike whining but isn't quite. ;) I mean if you aren't using this tactic often then not much of a loss, right?

Hey, did anyone mention counterspelling? Probably. There are still lots of ways to screw with a spell caster. Getting him to burn spells and/or reserve slots, even 2nd level, is an expensive way to deal with the chance of an attack that might not hit and may not interrupt anyway.

For what it's worth I don't use Readying to try interupt a huge amount because I find in the long run it's kinda of a lesser strength stategy. First you have to identify the mage. Then you have to run the risk of wasting a full turn waiting on something that may not happen. There are plenty of other options for mages. I'd rather just take the sure thing opportunity to thump them.

P.S. About the target of Readying noticing the person Readying on them, I'd say yes in fact they'd have to be watching relatively intently. They are wanting to act on a momment's notice before the target gets to act. Hey, just another use for Spot, and possibily Bluff and Sense Motive. :P
 

two said:
My main point is this: I think spellcasters have it very easy in d&d. Lots of ways to get a spell off, even in dangerous circumstances (5' step is just gravy). I'm irritated that one of the last remaining ways to accomplish this, which is open to a commoner, is now gone (readying an action). Am I just being a baby?

Vote aye, or nay, and I'll be outta here.

Aye, I don't think spellcasters have it as easy as you think--we've already noted a ton of things that can make this more difficult, and having archers with ranks in Spellcraft was only one of them.

I will admit, though, that the player in question was being rather obnoxious. If I came up with this tactic, I would have asked the DM *when I came up with it* and mentioned that the spell research was intended for that purpose. That's better than trying to be sneaky about things--after all, the DM is *not* the player's enemy, at least until a player blindsides him with something like this without pointing out the consequences.

In my campaign, I know that if I come up with a novel way to use the rules, I will *always* go to the DM first for the stamp of approval before I try to use it in a fight. That's unless, of course, I come up with it in the middle of a fight. Your player, however, was certainly thinking ahead with this one--and, well, the player in our group who tries to do things like that is generally met with a stare of disbelief, followed by a "No, we'll talk about it later." If it's something that he foolishly built into the character without consulting first, the DM will probably be willing to make a retroactive change. The first time, anyway.

So, as my final word on the subject:

1) The idea of drawing fire is perfectly reasonable--and if a player wants to develop a tactic for his character that could be used that way, it would be appropriate to try to find a reasonable method rather than just saying "no".

2) A player who tries to sneak things past his GM is asking for a beat-down. The atmosphere is much better when (on the players side) players are willing to approach the GM about a desired tactic, and can expect (on the GM's side) that the GM will provide a means if the tactic isn't unreasonable.

Some players don't understand this model. Some GM's make it difficult. The GM's that are willing to put in the time to make sound judgements generally get *very* riled up when players try the "easier to ask for forgiveness" tactic.

So my advice is: Gently suggest to the player that in a situation on the edge of the rules like that, it would be worthwhile to ask first next time. And then be prepared to give a little if he does, or smack him down if he doesn't.
 

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