My @!@#! Player abusing Feather Fall

[Piratecat]

Actually, Sullivan, you and KarinsDad are about two inches away from being suspended; both of you please go reread the rules up at the top of every forum. You guys have broken the "no insults" rule multiple times in this thread. Being rude, snarky or insulting to other people isn't okay. You're welcome to disagree with other peoples' opinions or ideas, but levelling criticism on a personal level isn't going to be tolerated.

If this is somehow a problem, feel free to email me.

 

[Hypersmurf]

I suppose the smart thing to do is buy a Wand of Feather Fall (750 GP) and get 50 free "spell interrupt triggers" plus, well, the ability to not die when going off a cliff.

Well, it can be argued that a wand of Feather Fall does take a standard action.

The casting time of the spell is the time required to activate the power, unless the item description states otherwise.

The item description for wands states that activating a wand is a standard action, or the casting time of the spell if it's longer. "A free action" is not longer, therefore activating a wand of Feather Fall is, arguably, a standard action...

-Hyp.

 

[Squire James]

Wow, this one's almost become a paladin thread!

I think it is reasonable for a DM to "take back" a ruling that he later finds to be (in his opinion) incorrect. DM's cannot always out-think their players, and they should not be penalized for that fact.

The DM apparently accepted the cantrip with the understanding that it had no mechanical effect, and that making it a swift action would cause no harm. Later on, he discovered that it DID have a mechanical effect... it triggered readied actions. The DM's initial assessment of the value of the cantrip was proven wrong, and thus the DM reassessed the cantrip. I believe he was well within his rights.

"Congratulations, my clever player, you found a loophole in the rules! As a reward, I will let the events where you exploited the loophole stand and I'll give you a few bonus XP for being clever. However, I am closing this loophole in the future and am banning/nerfing that cantrip. The God of Magic has decided that cantrips should never be usable as swift actions."

I've had to deal with this sort of player before... he would come up with a long series of small bends in the rules that individually don't appear to be a big deal (and are usually quite reasonable). Taken together, he wrecks the campaign in a totally unreasonable fashion. He was basically a Deck of Many Things with legs!

 

[Silveras]

Re: Power o'de'Cantrip

Before even the issue of assigning a level you have included a metamagic within the spell. Featherfall does this for purely D&D legacy reasons (there were ways around having the spell function as it does but most likely rejected for flavour reasons). It should not be done in new spells. He wants it speeded up? Then take Quicken and burn the appropriate spell slot. Otherwise he can create a free action magical item based on the 1 action casting version of the cantrip. Call it Glove of Defiance, that will do it at will with a free action finger motion. Pricy? Oh hell ya, but true style doesn't come cheap.

FYI: Contrary to your assertion that "It should not be done in new spells", each of the last few WotC published books do just that.

They have descriptions of the Swift and Immediate actions at the start of the spells chapter. In these headers, Quicken Spell is revised to convert a spell to a casting time of 1 Swift Action.

A Swift Action is "like a free action", but only 1 allowed per round. An Immediate Action is similar, except that you can even use that on someone else's turn. These actions are now part of the core SRD rules (see below). Several new spells have casting times of 1 Swift Action or 1 Immediate Action. Although the quotes below are specific to manifesting Psionics, the same language is used the new books with regard to spells.

New Action Types
Swift Action: A swift action consumes a very small amount of time, but represents a larger expenditure of effort and energy than a free action. You can perform one swift action per turn without affecting your ability to perform other actions. In that regard, a swift action is like a free action. However, you can perform only a single swift action per turn, regardless of what other actions you take. You can take a swift action any time you would normally be allowed to take a free action. Swift actions usually involve psionics or the activation of psionic items; many characters (especially those who don’t use psionics) never have an opportunity to take a swift action.
Manifesting a quickened power is a swift action. In addition, manifesting any power with a casting time of 1 swift action is a swift action.
Manifesting a power with a manifesting time of 1 swift action does not provoke attacks of opportunity.
Immediate Action: Much like a swift action, an immediate action consumes a very small amount of time, but represents a larger expenditure of effort and energy than a free action. However, unlike a swift action, an immediate action can be performed at any time—even if it’s not your turn. Using an immediate action on your turn is the same as using a swift action, and counts as your swift action for that turn. You cannot use another immediate action or a swift action until after your next turn if you have used an immediate action when it is not currently your turn (effectively, using an immediate action before your turn is equivalent to using your swift action for the coming turn). You also cannot use an immediate action if you are currently flat-footed.

 

[KarinsDad]

LOL, you are now entering the pathetic. Attempting again to draw away from what I guess you are beginning to realize is a lost cause for you. To try switch from objective rules to subjective interpretations of environments. Don't worry though, it's obvious that you couldn't bring yourself to admit it so I won't bother ask you to fess up. That brings us to....

You avoided the question.

LOL. I don't need to post it. You've brought nothing of merit forward yet. Given that last time even when I did give you concrete evidence (frankly with a lot more curtesy than you are earning right now) you simply chose to ignore it. You've used up your free ride of making an outlandish claim with nothing to back it up. So now the burden is not on me, or anyone else, until you can actually come up with something that resembles a solid reason -for- Quicken metamagic is explicitly excluded from the requirement that you must concentrate on one spell to the exclusion of other spells during the casting period to cast a given spell.

So how about then we do things different this time by you starting out by bringing a coherent logical arguement forward. Not just selections of vague sentences that prove nothing about the subject at hand.

Not that it is all that pertanent to your original babbling. But seeing how you have lost that one I'll let you move onto another.

I'll give you, say 48 hours. So in a couple days I'll check back and see what you have. That'll should give you plenty of time....if there is actually something to this claim of yours. Of course I expect you to give an empty answer here quite quickly that you already have proved it. You haven't of course, but I don't need to get into that now. I'll save that laugh for a couple days if you decide to endulge me such.

Your insults notwithstanding, you did not disprove what I posted and again avoided the question.

Nobody else came to the defense of your position either.

The reason is because there are no rules that indicate that you cannot cast a quickened spell during the action of casting another spell. The rules instead indicate that you can and I have already posted them.

 

[Elder-Basilisk]

Actually, I don't think it would work. I, at least, rule that the trigger for a readied action must be specific, so if you are readying to attack in order to disrupt a spell, that won't trigger on a wand. Using a wand is not casting a spell. (Mechanically, that's a good thing too, since wands are not interruptable by damage).

So, if the player switched to a wand--and you let wands of feather fall be free action by taking a different interpretation of the rules than Hypersmurf--it would be useful for stopping catapult stones or screwing up the aim of giant-hurled boulders (which do not have a flat trajectory and would therefore be significantly off if they didn't descend as expected), but not for triggering readied actions to disrupt spellcasting.

I suppose the smart thing to do is buy a Wand of Feather Fall (750 GP) and get 50 free "spell interrupt triggers" plus, well, the ability to not die when going off a cliff.

Hm... wand of Feather Fall. Who would of thunk?

 

[Piratecat]

You avoided the question.

Your insults notwithstanding, you did not disprove what I posted and again avoided the question.

Nobody else came to the defense of your position either.

Okay, this is not stopping the argument, and I have no interest in micromanaging this thread. KD, I shot you an email -- I think the best thing is for neither of you to address comments to the other. There's no going to be a "winner" here, and neither of you is going to convince the other, so please just let it lie.

Thanks to those people who are having the conversation without turning it into an argument.

 

[two]

Well, it can be argued that a wand of Feather Fall does take a standard action.

The casting time of the spell is the time required to activate the power, unless the item description states otherwise.

The item description for wands states that activating a wand is a standard action, or the casting time of the spell if it's longer. "A free action" is not longer, therefore activating a wand of Feather Fall is, arguably, a standard action...

-Hyp.

At this point, I calmly run away from the Player's Handbook -- screaming....

Will it never end?????? ARRGHHHHHH!!!

 

[Darmanicus]

My head hurts!

 

[Piratecat]

You know what this calls for? More rules!