My @!@#! Player abusing Feather Fall

[KarinsDad]

This, and some other free actions do actually require effort.

Effort, but not full attention.

Walking 10 feet with a 50 pound backback on your back takes effort too, but not full attention either. This also does not cause you to fall unconscious while disabled, so effort is not the issue.

Strike three???

 

[sullivan]

You can cast a Quickened spell in the middle of maintaining a spell or in the middle of casting a spell.

"You can perform one or more free actions while taking another action normally."

"Casting a quickened spell is a free action. You can perform another action, even casting another spell, in the same round as you cast a quickened spell."

Free actions are taken DURING other actions. Nothing prevents that other action from being spell casting. So, this allows it. Feel free to post a rule that disallows it.

Strike two???

Against you? Perhaps since you have obviously slipped off your rocker. I said while casting, which is something completely different than "in the same round".

 

[sullivan]

Effort, but not full attention.

Walking 10 feet with a 50 pound backback on your back takes effort too, but not full attention either. This also does not cause you to fall unconscious while disabled, so effort is not the issue.

Strike three???

There are indeed different sources of stess. What source would it come from for a Quickened spell. Hmmm. I guess it must be something pretty intense since, you know, just a momment of it could cause you to drop dead. It likely doesn't have much to do with heavy backpacks or walking.

Yup, you've completely dropped off your rocker. It would help explain why you seem to have missed the first few strikes against you, but hey who's counting? Oh ya, you. Anyway, let's go back to Strike One K.D.:

Incorrect.

The three quotes I made were from the Concentration skill itself in discussion of characters being distracted. Only one of those three was from the list. But, the Concentration skill section IS the rules just as much as the Magic Overview section in the book on this topic.


Try again.

You are quoting from a summary in a section that deals with selecting and understanding a skill that is used for a number of different catagories of actions, on specialization of a sub-type is the outcome from what we want to know about. So doesn't it make sense to go to the section where the root cause of going to the skill lies? A much longer section specific to spells that goes into much more detail about the different senarios that create or can create a possible disruption?

If two sections concerning the same rules have a conflict or an ambiguity, it is not the way sullivan interprets it as the ONLY way.

But there is no ambiguity between the sections. There is only ambiguity in the section you choose. When put both together as a whole the puzzle is solved. Both can be held true for one, and only one choice (barring an error on the authors part).

If YOUR interpretation is the only one, then every DM should force PCs and NPCs to roll a Concentration check whenever they cast Feather Fall while falling because falling is minimally a vigorous (and often unexpected) motion for the caster.

Do you enforce THAT in your game?

DM: Oh too bad. Although your wizard purposely studied that Feather Fall spell, you missed your concentration roll for casting while falling, so you fall the 50 feet and die. Better luck next time.

If they try to perform sky diving by reaching or nearing terminal velocity and then timing the casting so they float the last 60 feat, thus being in the equivalent of a 200 mph. Well yes I suppose that should incure a Con check since it is the equivalent to weather, even without percepitaton or dust specified in the SRD. However short of that, well we are getting into subject rather than the objective area of the rules, aren't we? Perhaps we need to get back to the objective rules that we were discussing.

 

[KarinsDad]

Against you? Perhaps since you have obviously slipped off your rocker. I said while casting, which is something completely different than "in the same round".

You have yet to prove this. I have two quotes (free actions are performed DURING other actions and a quickened spell is a free action) that allow it.

You have yet to post a rule that disallows it.

If anyone is slipping off their rocker, it is you.

This is a rules forum, not an opinion fest.

 

[KarinsDad]

If they try to perform sky diving by reaching or nearing terminal velocity and then timing the casting so they float the last 60 feat, thus being in the equivalent of a 200 mph. Well yes I suppose that should incure a Con check since it is the equivalent to weather, even without percepitaton or dust specified in the SRD. However short of that, well we are getting into subject rather than the objective area of the rules, aren't we? Perhaps we need to get back to the objective rules that we were discussing.

So, you are now claiming that only by reaching terminal velocity can a falling character be in vigorous motion?

What about casting a Quickened spell while jumping? Is jumping vigorous motion? If jumping, why not falling?

How about while swimming or when in a river current??? Is a river current vigorous motion, but not falling???

Do you need concentration checks to cast Quickened spells while falling, jumping, or being pulled along in a current???

Where do you draw the line that some motion is vigorous and others are not? And post a rule to support this while you are at it.

 

[Saeviomagy]

I guess I'll just let him use his Feather Fall tactic. It's not a bad trade off (1st level spell for a readied action). Now, the question is, can you scribe FeatherFall onto a scroll? Pull out scroll of FeatherFall, read it, trigger action, drop scroll, cast spell you actually care about. Not bad for 25 gp. (this assumes you don't need to move that round or dont' have a special belt-o-remove-scrolls-as-free-acton).

This is the best thing you've said all thread, and now let me help you a bit.

A scroll with a free-action spell on it is STILL a standard action to use. To quote the rules: "Activating a spell completion item (a scroll - Saeviomagy) is a standard action and provokes attacks of opportunity exactly as casting a spell does."

So - he HAS to use his first level slots for this.

He might want to consider getting a hat of disguise and looking like he's wearing platemail instead though.

 

[Caliban]

This is the best thing you've said all thread, and now let me help you a bit.

A scroll with a free-action spell on it is STILL a standard action to use. To quote the rules: "Activating a spell completion item (a scroll - Saeviomagy) is a standard action and provokes attacks of opportunity exactly as casting a spell does."

So - he HAS to use his first level slots for this.

He might want to consider getting a hat of disguise and looking like he's wearing platemail instead though.

However, this is contradicted by the rule on page 213 of the DMG, USING ITEMS, second paragraph: "Activating a magic item is a standard action unless the item description indicates otherwise. However, the casting time of a spell is the time required to activate the same power in an item, whether it's a scroll, a wand, or a pair of boots, unless the item description specifically states otherwise."

The last official ruling I saw was that this superceded the general activation times listed for each of the ways to activate an item (Spell Completion, Spell Trigger, Command Word, and Use Activated), except for Use Activated.

 

[Hypersmurf]

A scroll with a free-action spell on it is STILL a standard action to use. To quote the rules: "Activating a spell completion item (a scroll - Saeviomagy) is a standard action and provokes attacks of opportunity exactly as casting a spell does."

"Activating a magic item is a standard action unless the item description indicates otherwise. However, the casting time of a spell is the time required to activate the same power in an item, regardless of the type of magic item, unless the item description specifically states otherwise."

The casting time of Feather Fall is a free action. Thus, a free action is the time required to activate Feather Fall in an item, regardless of the type of magic item, unless the item description specifically states otherwise.

The description of the spell completion activation method is not the item description.

EDIT - or, more succinctly, 'What Caliban said'.

-Hyp.

 

[sullivan]

So, you are now claiming that only by reaching terminal velocity can a falling character be in vigorous motion?

To spell it out clearer for you, since this deals with the section of the SRD you are currently boycotting, it could subjectively be ruled to fall under "Violent Weather". No rain or sand, but without appropriate gear that's some nasty wind that can accompish the same thing. So is the Con check strickly mandated for terminal velocity? Nope, this is an area of subjectivity. You could also count it as Violent or Vigorous Motion since winds at that speed (if you've ever experienced something close to it) tends to really smack you around, depending on what you are wearing. It's not the speed itself, it's the oscilating air pressure around you tossing you about. Being able to control your tumble would help a lot in that matter. Once again calling for a subjective DM interpretation of the environment.

Of course this has nothing to do with whether it is a Quickened spell or not.

What about casting a Quickened spell while jumping? Is jumping vigorous motion? If jumping, why not falling?

How about while swimming or when in a river current??? Is a river current vigorous motion, but not falling???

Do you need concentration checks to cast Quickened spells while falling, jumping, or being pulled along in a current???

Where do you draw the line that some motion is vigorous and others are not? And post a rule to support this while you are at it.

LOL, you are now entering the pathetic. Attempting again to draw away from what I guess you are beginning to realize is a lost cause for you. To try switch from objective rules to subjective interpretations of environments. Don't worry though, it's obvious that you couldn't bring yourself to admit it so I won't bother ask you to fess up. That brings us to....

You have yet to prove this. I have two quotes (free actions are performed DURING other actions and a quickened spell is a free action) that allow it.

You have yet to post a rule that disallows it.

If anyone is slipping off their rocker, it is you.

This is a rules forum, not an opinion fest.

LOL. I don't need to post it. You've brought nothing of merit forward yet. Given that last time even when I did give you concrete evidence (frankly with a lot more curtesy than you are earning right now) you simply chose to ignore it. You've used up your free ride of making an outlandish claim with nothing to back it up. So now the burden is not on me, or anyone else, until you can actually come up with something that resembles a solid reason -for- Quicken metamagic is explicitly excluded from the requirement that you must concentrate on one spell to the exclusion of other spells during the casting period to cast a given spell.

So how about then we do things different this time by you starting out by bringing a coherent logical arguement forward. Not just selections of vague sentences that prove nothing about the subject at hand.

Not that it is all that pertanent to your original babbling. But seeing how you have lost that one I'll let you move onto another.

I'll give you, say 48 hours. So in a couple days I'll check back and see what you have. That'll should give you plenty of time....if there is actually something to this claim of yours. Of course I expect you to give an empty answer here quite quickly that you already have proved it. You haven't of course, but I don't need to get into that now. I'll save that laugh for a couple days if you decide to endulge me such.

 

[two]

"Activating a magic item is a standard action unless the item description indicates otherwise. However, the casting time of a spell is the time required to activate the same power in an item, regardless of the type of magic item, unless the item description specifically states otherwise."

The casting time of Feather Fall is a free action. Thus, a free action is the time required to activate Feather Fall in an item, regardless of the type of magic item, unless the item description specifically states otherwise.

The description of the spell completion activation method is not the item description.

EDIT - or, more succinctly, 'What Caliban said'.

-Hyp.

Oh good lord.

I'll say it now, and maintain it until I die: D&D just has TOO MANY RULES.

Ok. Done.

I suppose the smart thing to do is buy a Wand of Feather Fall (750 GP) and get 50 free "spell interrupt triggers" plus, well, the ability to not die when going off a cliff.

Hm... wand of Feather Fall. Who would of thunk?