D&D 5E (2024) Using Action Surge to cast spells in 2024

[Seramus]

Yeah, I also agree with that. The spell is cast on your turn, any effects that trigger when a "spell is cast" are executed at this time, and then the energy is held until the designated Reaction trigger (or lost if that trigger never happens / the character chooses to abandon it). The slot is expended either way.

This can have some funny consequences, since you're triggering 'on cast' effects that resolve before the spell itself actually resolves. But such is life!

 

[UngeheuerLich]

You earlier claimed that "release the energy" which is what is readied in response to the trigger "finished" the Magic action. Meaning the action is not "finished" if that does not happen.



Read the Rules! This is absolutely 100% not true. The text clearly says you "cast the spell" when you Ready a spell. So anything that happens when you cast a spell, other than the effects of the spell itself happens then when you cast it, not when the trigger happens. For example:

PHB page 172: Arcane Ward ..... Whenever you cast an Abjuration spell with a spell slot, the ward regains a number of Hit Points equal to twice the level of the spell slot.

PHB page 65: Beguiling Magic ....In addition, immediately after you cast an Enchantment or Illusion spell using a spell slot, you can cause a creature you can see within 60 feet of yourself to make a Wisdom saving throw against your spell save DC ....

PHB page 67: Battle Magic ... After you cast a spell that has a casting time of an action, you can make one attack with a weapon as a Bonus Action.

PHB page 149: Wild Magic Surge .... Once per turn, you can roll 1d20 immediately after you cast a Sorcerer spell with a spell slot. If you roll a 20, roll on the Wild Magic Surge table to create a magical effect ....

PHB Page 173: Expert Divination ... When you cast a Divination spell using a level 2+ spell slot, you regain one expended spell slot.

PHB page 211: Free Casting. Whenever you cast a spell with a level 1–4 spell slot, roll 1d4. If the number you roll is the same as the slot’s level, the slot isn’t expended.

All of these things happen when you "cast" the spell, which is clearly on your turn when you ready a spell, not when you release the energy. So yes you wiggle your fingers, recite the verbal components, "cast" the spell and any of these applicable things happen. Then you release the spell itself on the trigger, or not; if you don't want to, if you use your reaction for something else, if you lose or chose to end concentration before the trigger happening. But in all these cases the spell has been cast.

That part seems to be absolutely correct.
The spell is cast as normal at the time of taking the ready action.

 

[UngeheuerLich]

Yeah, I also agree with that. The spell is cast on your turn, any effects that trigger when a "spell is cast" are executed at this time, and then the energy is held until the designated Reaction trigger (or lost if that trigger never happens / the character chooses to abandon it). The slot is expended either way.

This can have some funny consequences, since you're triggering 'on cast' effects that resolve before the spell itself actually resolves. But such is life!

Yes. In some cases, I'd allow the additional effect when the spell energy is released if it otherwise would be strange. The enchantment effect might be such a case.
The ready action is just weird.

 

[James Gasik]

I have a question!

When someone Readies to cast a spell, at what point can the spell be Counterspelled? On their turn, or when they use their Reaction?

If the spell is cast on your turn but released later, does this mean you could Ready while behind cover or out of sight, then reveal yourself and "unleash the energy" safe from countermagic?

 

[ECMO3]

Nothing up there implies that the Ready Action that is being used to ready the Magic Action is what casts the spell instead of the Magic Action. Ready never readies itself.

Actually nothing at all in the text implies you take the Magic action at all when you Ready a spell or that you take a second action at the same time you Ready any action.

Moreover, then we go back to this:

From the PHB: "Then, you choose the action you will take in response to that trigger"

You are releasing the energy in response to the trigger when you Ready a spell, you are not taking the Magic action in response to the trigger.

You are arguing in circles here, when I mentioned this the first time that was when you came up with the nonsense that you "finish" the Magic action when you "release the energy"

 

[ECMO3]

When someone Readies to cast a spell, at what point can the spell be Counterspelled? On their turn, or when they use their Reaction?

When you cast it, because an opponent needs to see you cast it with VSM and you only cast it when you take the Ready action.

If the spell is cast on your turn but released later, does this mean you could Ready while behind cover or out of sight, then reveal yourself and "unleash the energy" safe from countermagic?

Yes, as long as you do not need to see the target. For example, you can be around the corner and Ready fireball in this fashion, jump out, release the energy using your Reaction and it could not be counterspelled.

You can no Ready Hold Person in this fashion though because you must see the target when you cast it, so the same thing that applies to the counterspeller applies to you in reverse.

 

[pemerton]

none of them make that distinction, the spell is cast and immediately thereafter, still on your turn, the energy is being released. The spell is never ‘readied’ in any of them.

That being said, I agree that the spell has been fully cast on your turn even when you take the Ready action, that is why you used up the spell slot even when the reaction never happens. I don’t think anyone was arguing against that however

Yeah, I also agree with that. The spell is cast on your turn, any effects that trigger when a "spell is cast" are executed at this time, and then the energy is held until the designated Reaction trigger (or lost if that trigger never happens / the character chooses to abandon it). The slot is expended either way.

The ready action is just weird.

I agree about the weirdness. I think it can help to keep the fiction in mind: that the casting of a spell always involves first conjuring up the energy (by performing the appropriate verbal and somatic components, and expending the appropriate slot and material components) and then releasing that energy. Sometimes that second step happens more or less immediately, but sometimes the caster waits a second or two, until the time is ripe. That latter case is captured, mechanically, by the Ready action.

This can have some funny consequences, since you're triggering 'on cast' effects that resolve before the spell itself actually resolves. But such is life!

Yes. In some cases, I'd allow the additional effect when the spell energy is released if it otherwise would be strange. The enchantment effect might be such a case.

I think this approach, of applying the additional effect when the energy is released, is a way to try and keep the fiction consistent and coherent. I can easily see different tables handling it differently, depending on how exactly they see it all fitting together in fictional terms.

For instance, with the Beguiling Magic case, is this seen as the caster eking out extra power from their magic? In which case, it looks like it's part of the released energy, and so should be "readied" along with the primary spell effect? Or is it more like a side effect of the caster's magic? In which case, maybe it happens straight away, even though the energy for the primary effect is still being "held".

 

[pemerton]

Yes, as long as you do not need to see the target. For example, you can be around the corner and Ready fireball in this fashion, jump out, release the energy using your Reaction and it could not be counterspelled.

You can no Ready Hold Person in this fashion though because you must see the target when you cast it, so the same thing that applies to the counterspeller applies to you in reverse.

I don't see why you have to be able to see the target of Hold Person when you cast it.

The spell wording is:

Choose a Humanoid that you can see within range. The target must succeed on a Wisdom saving throw or have the Paralyzed condition for the duration.​

That is all a description of the effect. So when you release the spell energy, you have to be able to see the person you are targetting with the spell. But the spell doesn't say that it can't be cast unless the intended target is visible.

As for @James Gasik's question, here is the Counterspell wording:

You attempt to interrupt a creature in the process of casting a spell. The creature makes a Constitution saving throw. On a failed save, the spell dissipates with no effect, and the action, Bonus Action, or Reaction used to cast it is wasted.​

This says that Counterspell targets the creature who is casting, and makes the spell dissipate with no effect. Once a spell has been cast, and the caster is holding its energy waiting to release it, (i) the caster is no longer in the process of casting a spell, and (ii) it can't be the cast that the action used to cast it is wasted (because that action has already occurred, and has generated the spell energy that the caster is holding), and (iii) it can't be the case that the spell dissipates with no effect.

So I think the wording of Counterspell means that once the spell has been cast on the caster's turn, and is now readied for release, it's too late to Counterspell it. At that point, I think you would need to use Dispel Magic: "Choose one creature, object, or magical effect within range." The held energy looks to me like it is a magical effect.

 

[ECMO3]

I don't see why you have to be able to see the target of Hold Person when you cast it.

The spell wording is:

Choose a Humanoid that you can see within range. The target must succeed on a Wisdom saving throw or have the Paralyzed condition for the duration.​

That is all a description of the effect. So when you release the spell energy, you have to be able to see the person you are targetting with the spell. But the spell doesn't say that it can't be cast unless the intended target is visible.

That is not the way I interpret it. I interpret "release the energy" to be the mechanical effect that takes place and the rest of the spell is part of the cast "as normal".

This says that Counterspell targets the creature who is casting, and makes the spell dissipate with no effect. Once a spell has been cast, and the caster is holding its energy waiting to release it, (i) the caster is no longer in the process of casting a spell, and (ii) it can't be the cast that the action used to cast it is wasted (because that action has already occurred, and has generated the spell energy that the caster is holding), and (iii) it can't be the case that the spell dissipates with no effect. So I think the wording of Counterspell means that once the spell has been cast on the caster's turn, and is now readied for release, it's too late to Counterspell it.

I agree .... I think .... you can't counterspell someone who Ready a spell unless you can see them when they do it (and cast the spell).

At that point, I think you would need to use Dispel Magic: "Choose one creature, object, or magical effect within range." The held energy looks to me like it is a magical effect.

I agree with this too/

 

[ECMO3]

For instance, with the Beguiling Magic case, is this seen as the caster eking out extra power from their magic? In which case, it looks like it's part of the released energy, and so should be "readied" along with the primary spell effect? Or is it more like a side effect of the caster's magic? In which case, maybe it happens straight away, even though the energy for the primary effect is still being "held".

I get what you are saying, but several of them would not function right if you waited until the energy is released. In specific, Battle Magic would be significantly changed. Expert Divination and Free Casting make the most sense to implement when you spend the slot (which is on your turn).