D&D 5E (2024) Using Action Surge to cast spells in 2024

[Maxperson]

Yes I did. Go look at post 578 and 591, also post 562 from another poster. ALL of which you replied to.

No. What I'm saying is that you can't do it. Period. There is nothing to release if that's what you are declaring. You can't declare "I'm going to release spell energy" and then cast a spell. Releasing energy doesn't cast a spell, with or without Ready. You have to declare that you are readying to cast a spell, and then the spell gets cast as normal, which means the Magic Action, since that the normal way to cast spells.

No it isn't and this is clearly wrong. You take the reaction in response to a trigger which presumably has not even happened on your turn. The action you take on your turn is Ready.

The language in the Ready action says you act later and pick an action. You are limited by the same actions you could take on your turn, as well as movement. None of the example in the Ready action show otherwise. One of them uses the Utilize action, and the other movement.

This idea you have that you can just invent actions isn't supported anywhere.

From the PHB:

"You take the Ready action to wait for a particular circumstance before you act. To do so, you take this action on your turn, which lets you act by taking a Reaction before the start of your next turn.

First, you decide what perceivable circumstance will trigger your Reaction. Then, you choose the action you will take in response to that trigger ...

When the trigger occurs, you can either take your Reaction right after the trigger finishes or ignore the trigger."


It is the actuion you take in response to the trigger. Why isn't it? Why do you think this is not the action you take in response to the trigger?

NO. You take an action in response to the trigger, which is fundamentally different than acting on your turn.

By the way, this is from the 5.5e glossary.

"Action​

On your turn, you can take one action. Choose which action to take from those below or from the special actions provided by your features. See also “Playing the Game” (“Actions”). These actions are defined elsewhere in this glossary:"

Notice how when it's referring to the specific combat actions, it's using lower case. The lower case action in ready means the actions in the above link, but also specifically adds movement.

 

[ECMO3]

No. What I'm saying is that you can't do it. Period.

Why?

There is nothing to release if that's what you are declaring. You can't declare "I'm going to release spell energy" and then cast a spell.

There is no "declaring" anywhere in the rules. You Ready a spell as per the rules, cast it as normal and then release the energy in response to the trigger. It is pretty simple.

You are not casting the spell in response to the trigger (you are casting it whether or not it happens), you are not using the Magic action in response to the trigger, you are releasing the energy in response to the trigger, like it says in the rule.

You also don't even have to do it. You talk about "declaring" but I don't even have to do what I Ready. I can use my Reaction for something else entirely.

Releasing energy doesn't cast a spell, with or without Ready.

No it doesn't. You cast the spell when you take the Ready action to "Ready a spell" as per the rules.

You have to declare that you are readying to cast a spell,

No you dont' You Ready a spell, you don't Ready TO cast a spell because you cast it whether or not the trigger occurs.

I can tell you what I am NOT declaring and that is the magic action, because I am not taking the Magic action in response to a trigger and I am still casting a spell whether or not I use my Reaction to release the energy.

The language in the Ready action says you act later and pick an action.

Yes. You release the energy.

You are limited by the same actions you could take on your turn, as well as movement.

No you aren't. Nothing says that. You choose an action and regardless you could release the energy on your turn if you took the Magic action as normal and cast the spell, so it still applies even if this was the case.

None of the example in the Ready action show otherwise. One of them uses the Utilize action, and the other movement.

"Pull the lever" is not something that is going to typically require the Utilize action. Utilize is for when "an object requires an action for its use". While that could apply for a level it is atypical.

Action
On your turn, you can take one action. Choose which action to take from those below or from the special actions provided by your features. See also “Playing the Game” (“Actions”). These actions are defined elsewhere in this glossary:"

Please note the underlined which prohibits you from taking the Magic action to cast a spell on the same turn you take the Ready action.

Moreover the link on Actions, referenced after "see also" above includes the following:

"Player characters and monsters can also do things not covered by these actions. Many class features and other abilities provide additional action options, and you can improvise other actions."

This is the case for "pull the lever" and for "release the energy" both of which are "things not covered by these actions".

 

[pemerton]

You Ready a spell and you choose a trigger to release the energy. "release the energy" is the action you use with your reaction; if you choose to when the trigger occurs, and not if you don't choose to when the trigger occurs or if the trigger doesn't occur before your next turn.

<snip>

You take the reaction in response to a trigger which presumably has not even happened on your turn. The action you take on your turn is Ready.

<snip>

You are not delaying your turn you are preparing to take a specific action in response to a trigger and you Ready a spell that action you are preparing to take MUST be to release the energy.

I don't agree with you about the Magic action - I still think, for the reasons that I've posted upthread, that the most straightforward way of making sense of the casting that takes place "as normal" is that it is a performance of the Magic action - but I agree with you in respect of what I've quoted.

It's clear that the casting happens in the same turn as the readying, and that what is readied is release of the spell energy that is being held following the casting.

 

[Maxperson]

Why?

Because nothing says or implies that you can.

There is no "declaring" anywhere in the rules. You Ready a spell as per the rules, cast it as normal and then release the energy in response to the trigger. It is pretty simple.

There is no spell action. The actions are listed in the glossary. The lower case "a" in the Ready action doesn't mean any action, because the Action section in the glossary uses lower case "a" for itself.

Until you can show that somehow the lower case "a" means something else, which requires explicit language, the actions you can choose are the ones on the list. Oh, and move since that is explicitly called out as an exception.

You are not casting the spell in response to the trigger (you are casting it whether or not it happens), you are not using the Magic action in response to the trigger, you are releasing the energy in response to the trigger, like it says in the rule.

Nowhere does it say that. It says you pick an action or move to do later and the actions are spelled out in the glossary.

You also don't even have to do it. You talk about "declaring" but I don't even have to do what I Ready. I can use my Reaction for something else entirely.

Do you not understand that when you say what you are going to do, you are declaring it? Let the "declare" thing go. It's not the weakness you think it is.

I can tell you what I am NOT declaring and that is the magic action, because I am not taking the Magic action in response to a trigger and I am still casting a spell whether or not I use my Reaction to release the energy.

You must declare one of the actions from the glossary, or else declare a move. Those are your choices for Ready.

"Pull the lever" is not something that is going to typically require the Utilize action. Utilize is for when "an object requires an action for its use". While that could apply for a level it is atypical.

Yes it is. Utilize is interactions with objects. It does not say that it is only for objects that require actions, only that objects that do require actions use Utilize.

"Player characters and monsters can also do things not covered by these actions. Many class features and other abilities provide additional action options, and you can improvise other actions."

Yes. You can do other things that specifically say they take an action. Nothing in Ready says casting a spell is a separate action OR that Ready is used to cast the spell. You are inventing both of those things.

This is the case for "pull the lever" and for "release the energy" both of which are "things not covered by these actions".

Releasing energy is not an action, and pull the lever is in fact covered by Utilize.

 

[Xetheral]

Nothing in Ready says casting a spell is a separate action OR that Ready is used to cast the spell. You are inventing both of those things.

(Bold emphasis added.) The text of Ready does indeed say the bolded portion. Specifically, it says: "When you Ready a spell, you cast the spell as normal...."

I understand (but do not agree with) the arguments that the plain reading of this text is not the best reading of this text. But the text exists right there in the rulebook. The statement that one casts a spell when one Readies it requires no "invention".

 

[Maxperson]

(Bold emphasis added.) The text of Ready does indeed say the bolded portion. Specifically, it says: "When you Ready a spell, you cast the spell as normal...."

I understand (but do not agree with) the arguments that the plain reading of this text is not the best reading of this text. But the text exists right there in the rulebook. The statement that one casts a spell when one Readies it requires no "invention".

Using Ready to cast the spell isn't casting the spell as normal, though. Nothing says that Ready is what casts the spell. When you Ready a spell to be cast, you use another action to do it and there are 3 normal ways to cast spells. Magic Action, Bonus Action, and Reaction. The latter two cannot be used, so the only way to cast the spell as normal is through the Magic Action.

I'm not saying you can't ready a spell to be cast. I'm saying nothing there says the Ready action is what casts the spell.

 

[UngeheuerLich]

Using Ready to cast the spell isn't casting the spell as normal, though. Nothing says that Ready is what casts the spell. When you Ready a spell to be cast, you use another action to do it and there are 3 normal ways to cast spells. Magic Action, Bonus Action, and Reaction. The latter two cannot be used, so the only way to cast the spell as normal is through the Magic Action.

I'm not saying you can't ready a spell to be cast. I'm saying nothing there says the Ready action is what casts the spell.

My question is, why didn't they just write:
You cannot use ready to cast a spell. Instead you cast the spell as normal but hold the energy until the start of your next turn. You can then use ready to release the energy of the spell if a trigger occurs.
A bit more unwieldy, but more precise and less ambiguous.

The most probable answer:
They decided a shorter wording in general, even if it leaves some ambiguity in corner cases, and put the "friendly interpretation clause" into the DMG.

If a player tells me, they ready the dash action, I would not say "haha, action wasted, you now have 60ft movement but you cannot move". I'd just let them do what they wanted: dash 30ft.

 

[Maxperson]

My question is, why didn't they just write:
You cannot use ready to cast a spell. Instead you cast the spell as normal but hold the energy until the start of your next turn. You can then use ready to release the energy of the spell if a trigger occurs.
A bit more unwieldy, but more precise and less ambiguous.

Sure, but 1) Why would they when they've already said Ready is for another action later on, and 2) Not being incredibly precise helps them achieve their mandate of rulings over rules. It gets people who want to try and get around the rules to try and rules lawyer changes, making DMs issue rulings.

The most probable answer:
They decided a shorter wording in general, even if it leaves some ambiguity in corner cases, and put the "friendly interpretation clause" into the DMG.

I think it's rulings over rules. These are designers who wrote 3e and 4e. They are capable of writing much clearer rules. Do you really think that in 5e they suddenly forgot how to write clearly? Almost all of the vagueness throughout 5e/5.5e is deliberate. I think that they probably overlooked a few things and/or made a few mistakes, but there's no way that accounts for all of the vagueness that is rife throughout all of 5e/5.5e.

If a player tells me, they ready the dash action, I would not say "haha, action wasted, you now have 60ft movement but you cannot move". I'd just let them do what they wanted: dash 30ft.

I mean, Dash just adds 30 feet to your movement and you are allowed to move, so I don't see where that wouldn't be allowed in any case. In fact, it seems really silly to me that they called out move as something you can ready, when Dash already fits that bill.

 

[Xetheral]

Using Ready to cast the spell isn't casting the spell as normal, though. Nothing says that Ready is what casts the spell. When you Ready a spell to be cast, you use another action to do it and there are 3 normal ways to cast spells. Magic Action, Bonus Action, and Reaction. The latter two cannot be used, so the only way to cast the spell as normal is through the Magic Action.

I'm not saying you can't ready a spell to be cast. I'm saying nothing there says the Ready action is what casts the spell.

(Bold emphasis added.) You keep repeating the bolded claim, but it's factually inaccurate. The text outright says that you cast the spell when you Ready it. Sure, it could have been slightly more explicit if they had instead worded it as: "When you take the Ready action to Ready a spell..." instead of "When you Ready a spell..." but that seems needlessly wordy and redundant.

It's cool that you think the plain reading isn't the best one--there are reasonable arguments regarding whether the inclusion of "as normal (expending any resources used to cast it)" imposes additional requirements on Readying a spell beyond the expenditure of resources. But the plain reading exists--it's right there on the page, even though you disagree with it.

 

[Maxperson]

(Bold emphasis added.) You keep repeating the bolded claim, but it's factually inaccurate. The text outright says that you cast the spell when you Ready it. Sure, it could have been slightly more explicit if they had instead worded it as: "When you take the Ready action to Ready a spell..." instead of "When you Ready a spell..." but that seems needlessly wordy and redundant.

It's cool that you think the plain reading isn't the best one--there are reasonable arguments regarding whether the inclusion of "as normal (expending any resources used to cast it)" imposes additional requirements on Readying a spell beyond the expenditure of resources. But the plain reading exists--it's right there on the page, even though you disagree with it.

I keep repeating it, because the "as normal" portion prevents it from being the ready action. Go to the spellcasting section of thr book. The only normal ways shown to cast spells are Magic Action, Reaction, Bonus Action, and I've been forgotten Ritual Casting.

Any other ways to cast spells are abnormal methods. If Ready is the thing casting the spell, then it is disqualified for not being a normal method.

Since Ready disqualifies itself, we look at the other language where we see that Ready is used to Ready actions.

What actions cast spells as normal? Only the Magic Action as all the other normal ways are disqualified for other reasons.