D&D 5E (2024) Using Action Surge to cast spells in 2024

[ECMO3]

Do you know what the difference between Ready Action and Ready is? The word Action. You're arguing a nothing burger.

The word "Action" which never appears like that with a capital A anywhere in the text.

You lose the action, and because you already cast the spell using the Magic Action on your turn, you lose the spell. Or in the case of the magic item, it simply doesn't get used.

EXACTLY you lose the action if you don't use your Reaction!

You say the Reaction completes the Magic action when you ready the spell and if you don't take the Reaction then you would not get to take the Magic action. But you did cast a spell .... so you cast a spell without using the Magic action!

You LOSE it, which is why you LOSE the spell. It's going to finish one way or the other.

You already cast the spell, that part is done and over with and has no bearing on what happens afterwards.

Use it or lose it. This is not rocket science man.

Yes if you don't use it you don't get to take the action, so then you don't get to take the Magic action then you would have cast a spell without using the Magic action. If I lose the Magic action then I did not take the Magic action.

The action chosen with Ready is not the only thing you can do with your Reaction. I can Ready a spell and then decide I want to take an opportunity attack if one presents itself, or I can Ready a spell and then cast Shield if somebody hits me with a weapon. Or a Glamour Bard can do Matle of Inspiration and I decide I want to use a Reaction to move. In these cases I take another action with my Reaction instead of using it to "release the energy".

If I am to believe you I would need to take 3 different actions here. Take Ready as an action, then I have to take the Magic action to cast a spell then a third action as my Reaction and in all of these examples I already cast the spell on my turn.

 

[Maxperson]

You say the Reaction completes the Magic action when you ready the spell and if you don't take the Reaction then you would not get to take the Magic action. But you did cast a spell .... so you cast a spell without using the Magic action!

It completes during your turn. Then you get an additional boon in the ability to hold the energies to release later. Holding energies is not part of the Magic Action or spellcasting.

You already cast the spell, that part is done and over with and has no bearing on what happens afterwards.

Right. The Magic Action is done.

Yes if you don't use it you don't get to take the action, so then you don't get to take the Magic action then you would have cast a spell without using the Magic action. If I lose the Magic action then I did not take the Magic action.

You lose the spell, which is the same difference.

If I am to believe you I would need to take 3 different actions here. Take Ready as an action, then I have to take the Magic action to cast a spell then a third action as my Reaction and in all of these examples I already cast the spell on my turn.

You say that as if it's a huge increase. The increase is 1.

 

[pemerton]

In my opinion, this is the weak point in your analysis. While it is true that the Ready action doesn't use the same "[a]s part of the same action" language as Divine Intervention, there are other abilities that don't use that language but which nevertheless allow spellcasting as part of another action. In particular, War Magic and Improved War Magic let you cast a spell "[w]hen you take the Attack action on your turn" (in place of one or more attacks) and the Valor Bard's Extra Attack lets you cast a spell "in addition" "[w]henever you take the Attack action on your turn" (also in lieu of an attack). Thus, I think it is unwarranted to conclude that casting a spell isn't part of the Ready action just because it doesn't use the same language as Divine Intervention.

Indeed, because the Ready action uses very similar language to War Magic and Improved Magic, the language used arguably better supports the opposite conclusion, that casting a spell is part of the Ready action. Specifically, the text of the Ready action states: "[w]hen you Ready a spell, you cast it as normal...," which is very similar to War Magic and Improved War Magic letting you cast a spell "[w]hen you take the Attack action." Sure, the language isn't an exact match, but it's very close.


I think it's much more straightforward to take "[w]hen you Ready a spell, you cast it as normal" at face value. The text outright says you cast the spell when you Ready it, and you (necessarily) Ready a spell by taking the Ready action. Ergo, you cast the spell by taking the Ready action. About as simple and straightforward as it gets.

By contrast, your reading of "[w]hen you Ready a spell, you cast it as normal" requires reading the text to implicitly allow an exception to the action economy rules (beyond what the Ready action already involves) to permit (and require) a character readying a spell to take both the Ready action and the Magic action in addition to a Reaction, via an argument that invokes the casting time rules. Sure, you've demonstrated that your reading of the text is plausible, but I certainly can't agree that it's the most straightforward!

A significant difference, for me, between readying and those subclass features is that the subclass features are intended to be power-ups: they allow casting a spell when it couldn't normally be cast. In 4e D&D, they would be free actions or no action (as is the case for the 4e Bladesinger's Bladespells).

Whereas the Ready action is not intended to be a power-up, beyond the way that it permits playing with the action economy and the turn sequence. And when it comes to readying spells, there seems to be a clear intention in the opposite direction: there is the whole concentration aspect, which risks losing the spell.

It therefore is counterintuitive, to me, that the Ready action should generate a type of power-up by circumventing restraints that are expressed by reference to the Magic action. Which to me is another reason in favour of my reading.

 

[Xetheral]

A significant difference, for me, between readying and those subclass features is that the subclass features are intended to be power-ups: they allow casting a spell when it couldn't normally be cast. In 4e D&D, they would be free actions or no action (as is the case for the 4e Bladesinger's Bladespells).

Whereas the Ready action is not intended to be a power-up, beyond the way that it permits playing with the action economy and the turn sequence. And when it comes to readying spells, there seems to be a clear intention in the opposite direction: there is the whole concentration aspect, which risks losing the spell.

It therefore is counterintuitive, to me, that the Ready action should generate a type of power-up by circumventing restraints that are expressed by reference to the Magic action. Which to me is another reason in favour of my reading.

Ok, so you're making a value judgment that it would be problematic to allow the Ready action to "circumvent[] restraints that are expressed by reference to the Magic action." That's a good reason for you to prefer your reading over mine!

Since I don't make the same value judgement, it doesn't carry any interpretive weight for me. But I appreciate your elaboration on what makes your reading appeal to you.

 

[pemerton]

Ok, so you're making a value judgment

I guess I'd characterise it as a reference to purpose - my interpretation deploys the canonical methodology of text, context, purpose.

 

[ECMO3]

It completes during your turn. Then you get an additional boon in the ability to hold the energies to release later.

Now you are changing your tune. So we go back to the action you are readying is "release the energy" .... you previously told me this was untrue and I was readying the Magic action which is completed when I "release the energy".

Which is it?

Holding energies is not part of the Magic Action or spellcasting.

You lose the spell, which is the same difference.

It is only the same difference if you don't have to use the Magic action to cast the spell. If casting the spell actually requires the Magic action (like you say) then it is a very big difference as you would have broken the rules by casting the spell and then not taking the Magic action.

Moreover you don't technically "lose the spell", because you did cast it. You lose the effects of the spell itself if you don't release the energy, but you do not lose any mechanics you get from the act of casting the spell and these can be significant depending on your class and subclass.

 

[Maxperson]

Now you are changing your tune. So we go back to the action you are readying is "release the energy" .... you previously told me this was untrue and I was readying the Magic action which is completed when I "release the energy".

Which is it?

I've changed nothing. From the get go I've been arguing that the spell is 100% cast on the Action Surge turn, and the energies are released later.

It is only the same difference if you don't have to use the Magic action to cast the spell. If casting the spell actually requires the Magic action (like you say) then it is a very big difference as you would have broken the rules by casting the spell and then not taking the Magic action.

Moreover you don't technically "lose the spell", because you did cast it. You lose the effects of the spell itself if you don't release the energy, but you do not lose any mechanics you get from the act of casting the spell and these can be significant depending on your class and subclass.

You DO lose it because you cast it. You can ONLY hold the energy after the spell is fully and completely cast. At that point, and ONLY at that point is there any energy to hold. Prior to full completion the only things that are happening is the caster saying mumbo jumbo, wiggling his fingers, and holding bat dung. Normally the spell goes flying out when you are done, but with the Ready Action(yes, I'm going to continue to call it that) you are specifically allowed to keep the energy held until later that round.

 

[ECMO3]

I've changed nothing. From the get go I've been arguing that the spell is 100% cast on the Action Surge turn, and the energies are released later.

You earlier claimed that "release the energy" which is what is readied in response to the trigger "finished" the Magic action. Meaning the action is not "finished" if that does not happen.

Prior to full completion the only things that are happening is the caster saying mumbo jumbo, wiggling his fingers, and holding bat dung.

Read the Rules! This is absolutely 100% not true. The text clearly says you "cast the spell" when you Ready a spell. So anything that happens when you cast a spell, other than the effects of the spell itself happens then when you cast it, not when the trigger happens. For example:

PHB page 172: Arcane Ward ..... Whenever you cast an Abjuration spell with a spell slot, the ward regains a number of Hit Points equal to twice the level of the spell slot.

PHB page 65: Beguiling Magic ....In addition, immediately after you cast an Enchantment or Illusion spell using a spell slot, you can cause a creature you can see within 60 feet of yourself to make a Wisdom saving throw against your spell save DC ....

PHB page 67: Battle Magic ... After you cast a spell that has a casting time of an action, you can make one attack with a weapon as a Bonus Action.

PHB page 149: Wild Magic Surge .... Once per turn, you can roll 1d20 immediately after you cast a Sorcerer spell with a spell slot. If you roll a 20, roll on the Wild Magic Surge table to create a magical effect ....

PHB Page 173: Expert Divination ... When you cast a Divination spell using a level 2+ spell slot, you regain one expended spell slot.

PHB page 211: Free Casting. Whenever you cast a spell with a level 1–4 spell slot, roll 1d4. If the number you roll is the same as the slot’s level, the slot isn’t expended.

All of these things happen when you "cast" the spell, which is clearly on your turn when you ready a spell, not when you release the energy. So yes you wiggle your fingers, recite the verbal components, "cast" the spell and any of these applicable things happen. Then you release the spell itself on the trigger, or not; if you don't want to, if you use your reaction for something else, if you lose or chose to end concentration before the trigger happening. But in all these cases the spell has been cast.