My player is squishing everything.

[Dannyalcatraz]

I was thinking the numbers were a bit off.

For his strength and large size, his max load is 1400lbs, yes.

However, his deadlift is still x2 that: 2800lbs and he's still able to move. Yes, that's still less than the 4000lbs+ you mentioned, but still...

And his push/drag would be 7000lbs...so if he's already situated above his target- on an overhanging cliff ledge, perhaps, he should be able to drag himself to that ledge and make his attack.

 

[eamon]

The real problem is the 1d6/10ft. falling damage rule. This rules works and makes sense for a medium sized, average weight human - but heavier critters clearly should do themselves more harm. Smaller creatures should be less vulnerable. A cat is hurt by, but can survive most any fall, and creatures even smaller are often not even hurt.

I can imagine that damage is capped at 200ft, and that it's proportional to weight (say, 1d6 per 200 pounds per 10 ft?). At best, he'd deal twice as much damage as he takes, and that's being optimistic.

And, of course, something like a reflex save to avoid the falling object is valid - and I wouldn't put the save DC very high - something like DC 10 or 12? If you rule that it's unexpected and the creatures don't see it, perhaps DC 16? Certainly not more than 20, and even then, if he takes half damage no matter what, then the tactic is risky at best.

 

[Brian Gibbons]

There is a reason that the section on dealing damage from falling objects is in the DMG. It's a rule of thumb for GMs to use, not a hard and fast rule for players to abuse.

If you're letting players use the DMG (as it appears you also did with item creation), you're going to have problems. Rules in the PHB are assumed to be good as is. Rules in the DMG often need to be tempered with common sense.

Falling object damage has always been wonky. Consider that a mature blue dragon weighs somewhere in the neighborhood of 20,000 pounds, has trained in a special maneuver to deal damage by landing on and crushing its foes, and still only deals 2d8+13 damage with this attack, as compared to the 100d6 (or 20d6, depending on how you interpret that paragraph) it would deal if treated as a falling object.

There are several ways of dealing with this issue. The easiest is to have a conversation with the player where you explain that you were incorrect to let him use the DMG as he did, and you'll be interpreting things differently in the future.

The other option (for players with harder heads) is to consider that, if the world really works that way, others will use that tactic as well. Have a huge flying creature of appropriate CR show up (say, a mature adult white dragon). Have its first action be to fly over the character at issue, fold its wings and fall from 10' and land on top of him. Ask the character whether he would like to roll 100d6 for damage, or if everyone agrees that a new interpretation is necessary.

As far as alternative interpretations, there are a wide variety of ways to do it (I'd generally look at the dragon crush rules for inspiration; considering that requires you to be three size categories higher, that's going to make it worthless for the PC right there); however, pretty much any sane interpretation is going to end up making this a non-viable combat option.

While I consider that a feature, and not a bug, that will depend on how upset the player will be at this change (and, justifiably so, if you have let this go on long enough that he's building his character and item choices around this inane idea).

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

The other option (for players with harder heads) is to consider that, if the world really works that way, others will use that tactic as well.

I've used tactics like that for years- even pre 3Ed.

Some of my smarter dragons have dropped boulders on parties approaching their lairs. The really smart ones used illusions of themselves approaching from a different vector to distract the party.

A 2Ed Ftr/MU/Th dropped Reduced boulders and Item-ized bonfire & oil vials on a party travelling with a Mage using a Globe of Invulnerability. The globe dispelled the spell effects, leaving the party buried in rubble into which burning oil was trickling...

 

[irdeggman]

At what point in the round does he move from "falling"?

This is one of the key points to resolving falling itself. It has a lot to do with mitigating pit traps and rings of feather fall (and feather fall spell - now an immediate action spell {note you can't perform an immediate action when you are flat footed}.

I rule that all of your movement is resolved on your turn in the initiative order. When teleporting your momentum is continued (if I recall correctly) - so it would be conceivable to allow your movement to likewise be continued (especially via things like dimension door and step spells)

So in this case:


1st round he teleported

2nd round his movment is resolved (i.e. the "falling")


Note by resolving this in the order I've presented also allows for "saving" falling characters by other characters - especially when "flying" - otherwise there are a lot of "splats" going on.


Also in this specific case I think you have ruled incorrectly.

The item (as well as the teleport spell) states you can bring along items weighing up to your maximum load. They do not distiguish between items carried or worn (as in they all all count towards your max load in the first place). Since you have determined that after enlarging he has exceeded his max load - then the item will not allow him to teleport.

 

[Darkwolf71]

Also in this specific case I think you have ruled incorrectly.

The item (as well as the teleport spell) states you can bring along items weighing up to your maximum load. They do not distiguish between items carried or worn (as in they all all count towards your max load in the first place). Since you have determined that after enlarging he has exceeded his max load - then the item will not allow him to teleport.

Ahhhhh...
I was gonna say that.

I also agree that one of the best ways to stop players from abusing the rules is to have monsters use the same tactics.

One of our DMs has a favorite story. It involves a group who insisted on using called shots to the head, they thought this was an awesome tactic for winning battles. Until the NPCs started using it. They quickly decided not to use that option anymore.

 

[King-Panda]

Brian: They player in question is a DM as well. My group has been together and playing for around 7 years now, and we rotate between me and 2 other DM's. Making new items isn't anything new to them, and I make sure they do it right, or change it if I feel it needs changing.

I think we've pretty much determined that it isn't viable. Even if he manages to do everything right, he's still going to be taking at least half damage, if not more. I talked to him on the phone a little while ago, and he agreed (without issue) not to do it anymore.

It's actually a recent development; he's only tried it in three combat situations so far. The first time, he merely grappled an enemy, and we just rolled damage for falling (1d6). The next time he tried it, he brought up falling objects doing damage based on weight. We couldn't remember where the rule was (DMG 303), so I just said an extra 4d6 because he was so heavy. Then we found the rule, and that's where the arguing started. I ended up saying he couldn't do it anymore until I figured it out. Thanks for all the advice on dealing with it though.

 

[Brace Cormaeril]

If you were walking through a dungeon corridor, and all of the sudden a giant rock fell on your head, and the DM said, "you're dead", the first thing you would say is, "what, no save?"

The rules you are referring to are in expicit regard to falling OBJECTS, which have like, hardness and stuff. What is the PC's hardness, in this case? PC's have no hardness.

 

[King-Panda]

irdeggman: With a combat round equaling 6 seconds or so, about half that (one would think) is your move action. Although using his boots is a move action, I think of teleportational travel as instant. I therefore assumed he would fall on his turn.

I'm really not sure what to think about your moving rule. I don't quite get it either, which doesn't help much. You say "all of your movement is resolved on your turn in the initiative order". Well, he teleports instantly, and then "moves (read: falls) on "his turn" on his "initiative", correct? His turn is on whatever Init. count he rolled for his Init. roll, so it would make sense he would fall on his turn. I think. If you don't mind, is there another way you can explain that?

About the max weight issue for teleporting, I didn't catch that. Yet another nail in the coffin, thanks for pointing it out (you too darkwolf ).

Brace: The reason I was treating him as an object was 1) When he was trying to just do damage, and not grapple, he specifically stated he wished to fall "like an object"; Not moving at all, just either laying flat like a belly flop or maybe curling up like a ball. 2) Even though saying you "fall like an object" doesn't really mean anything, I didn't really know what else what to do at the time BUT treat him like one. And yeah, he doesn't have a hardness, but the 2000 lbs of gear he has does. Falling rules don't really talk about your gear getting hurt, do they? Had I just dealt him the same damage as he took in the first place, I probably would have dealt it to his gear too, I guess.

 

[Jack Simth]

One of my players is squishing all my baddies. He is literally jumping down onto them, or teleporting a little above them, and flattening them like a pancake.

A creature or object brought into being or transported to your location by a conjuration spell cannot appear inside another creature or object, nor can it appear floating in an empty space. It must arrive in an open location on a surface capable of supporting it. The creature or object must appear within the spell’s range, but it does not have to remain within the range.

1) He can't teleport above something - the school of conjuration forbids it (mostly - technically it only applying to things brought to you).
2) At level 12, with 22 strength and max ranks in Jump, with a Heavy Load (-6 ACP), he's at a Jump modifier of +15. The DC for 8 feet high is 32 (with a running start), and he needs to be at least ten feet over the target. The list doesn't go that high, but it's a flat progression, but on a two foot tall halfling, he needs to make a jump check DC of about 48 (with a running start). Even rolling a 20, he only gets a 35. Oh yeah - forgot - having a 20 foot move means he soaks a -6 penalty to his jump check - that's a 29, not a 35.