My players are in a wee bit of trouble...

[OnlineDM]

I'm inclined to go with the folks who say to run it as-is. A level 22 versus a party of level 13 PCs should be able to destroy them handily, but not in one round. Make it clear in-game how scary this guy is. He's way out of their league. It would take a miracle for them to beat him in a fair fight.

Then, it's up to the party to decide what to do. They can decide that discretion is the better part of valor and choose to go elsewhere for now. They can try to make it an unfair fight - perhaps by asking for divine help or similar things, as others have suggested. They can attempt the fight, realize that it's hopeless, and retreat. Or they can fight and stand and die. It's up to them.

It sounds like you have a somewhat sandboxy game, which means that PCs might run into threats that they really can't handle yet by themselves. I think it's appropriate to embrace that.

Good luck, and let us know what you ultimately decide to do and how it goes!

 

[S'mon]

If you statted the BBEG as a PC, my advice would be not to do that. PCs have vastly more offensive power than do NPCs of their level. Restat him as an Elite NPC. IME it should then probably work out fine; if the PCs may get their butts kicked but it should be fairly close.

 

[Ryujin]

If this derails your campaign, just cut them off at the pass. The BBEG is needed elsewhere, for his nefarious plans, so he leaves. They're intercepted, before they can get to him, and transported off somewhere else.

Or, perhaps, they end up fighting the fight as stated. They lose. Badly. One at a time. As they should. Hopefully none of the attacks are heavy enough to push them through negative bloodied. They're then stripped and packed off to the salt mines, from which they have to escape.

 

[S'mon]

I'm not sure why people are saying a +9 EL elite is unbeatable; IME PCs can hit on-level foes on around a 6+, with buffs, Heroic Effort et al they should be able to handle a 15+ ok.

 

[Ryujin]

Sure, if he's alone, but he shouldn't be alone.

 

[S'mon]

Sure, if he's alone, but he shouldn't be alone.

True, but the NPC allies of the PCs can take on most of the BBEG's guards off-stage, leaving something like a 5 on 5 fight is best. Either four 22nd level minions or three-four 14th level standard monsters would seem appropriate.

 

[KarinsDad]

I'm not sure why people are saying a +9 EL elite is unbeatable; IME PCs can hit on-level foes on around a 6+, with buffs, Heroic Effort et al they should be able to handle a 15+ ok.

Worse than that is the sheer amount of boredom when the players need to roll 15+ to hit. They're lucky if the entire team hits twice per round. The BBEG on the other hand hits 95% of his attacks with attacks that average 30+ points per round. Such an attack would take out most 13th level PCs with 3 hits.

Additionally, such a foe should be dropping effects on the PCs that should really hurt them. Such a foe should also focus fire on the PCs that do appear to hit him the most often and for the most damage. A PC Rogue should be down in 2 to 3 rounds depending on if the BBEG can attack more than once per round. The PC Leader is also a prime target. The leader heals one PC and bam, the BBEG should be all over that leader.

Personally, I think that with the type of effects that a 9 level higher elite can put out, most parties would be hard pressed.

However, I do agree with you. Let the players play. They too will be pulling out their big guns and I think that overall, the fight will be close.

There are PC powers that can turn a BBEG into a frog or send him to the Feywild or whatever for a least a round or put a wall between the PCs and him, giving the PCs a one round breather. I think that Piratecat shouldn't change the encounter at all and see what happens. He might be totally surprised by what his players come up with. He shouldn't water down the encounter.

Course, this assumes that the Elite is being used as a solo. If he has significant help, all bets are off.

 

[RangerWickett]

Pkitty, mas details por favor.

If they're clever, do they have to fight him? Can they just collapse the spire?

 

[Piratecat]

Thank you for the advice and suggestions!

Some more background: the PCs are members of a para-military organization named the Grey Guard. Reymus, the antagonist in question, is a corrupt Guard commander who has been violating some of the order's most sacred prohibitions (and who incidentally slew a PC's family 12 years ago.) He's a hardened warrior and monster-hunter who is well know as a very puissant fighter. And right now, through bad luck and over-confidence and a little bit of bad planning, he's 150' up on a large tower roof in the middle of a hurricane, with his allies already dead, needing to buy about 2 hours before an important plan can complete.

There are about 30 other Guardsmen in the tower, and frankly, I think there's a pretty good chance he could kill all of them -- including the PCs.

Maybe not. There are a few clerics in the tower, and the Aid Another rules may be a huge help here if the PCs and Guardsmen are willing to risk their lives by rushing him. A fall off the tower may not kill Reymus, but it would sure inconvenience him.

What I don't want is a deux ex machina, such as a convenient dragon arrival, and I don't want to make Reymus anything other than a complete badass. The players would feel cheated. I also don't want a boring fight where they're completely unable to hit him. There will probably be PC death, but it's a tricky line where I don't want that to solely be because they can't hit him. That's where I'm hoping the aid another rules come into play. More ideas and thoughts are very much welcome.

I've been using a standard PC sheet for Reymus which I'll simplify, but I'm unlikely to convert him to a normal solo per se; he needs to give the impression of someone with a lot of experience and tricks up his sleeve.

 

[RangerWickett]

Well, in the first ZEITGEIST adventure, there's an encounter with an NPC who can either be a level 20 standard with very low hit points due to sustained injuries, or a level 2 solo at full HP. Both are about the same challenge, but we wanted to give folks a choice, and to make the fight daunting so some parties might decide it's just not worth the risk.

A lot of GMs have said they used the 20th level version, and it worked. Me, I would've gone with the 2nd level version.

In 4e, I feel like it's just not a good idea to stat an opponent using player character creation options. I'd rather use a solo who's been designed to feel like a high-level fighter, rather than an actual high-level fighter who hasn't been designed to face 5 PCs at a time.

I wouldn't simplify, though. I'd make a complex 'monster' with the stats of a level 14 solo, at least 4 different encounter attacks, 2 encounter reactions, and some way to wipe conditions. Just make his various powers seem like they're special attacks, and you'll get the right flavor.

There has been some innovations in solo design that make them more dynamic, challenging, and all around interesting than original solos were.