My players are in a wee bit of trouble...

[Joshua Randall]

Random thoughts.

Aid Another is capped at +8, but that's still a huge accuracy boost. It does require you to be adjacent to the enemy being targeted, but the ally you're aiding can be anywhere... like the ranger 20 squares away.

Aid Another + Bull Rush could be effective. Try it often enough and eventually you'll succeed.

But, Reymus should be able to figure this out, and start killing off all the low-level allies who are providing the Aid Another bonuses.

What are the effects of the hurricane? Poor visibility (concealment)? Additional penalties to ranged attacks using projectile weapons?

Slide effects from the wind moving people around? Slippery footing from rain? Does this hurt Reymus more than it hurts the PCs? (Probably not - he won't be moving around too much as the low-levels would try to surround him to maximize Aid Another... until he kills them off.)

Are there any wacky rituals the PCs could use? They have 2 hours. They don't necessarily have to fight Reymus, just prevent him from leaving while they cast their ritual.

Last random thought... use Dread / Jenga tower pulls instead of 4e combat?

 

[Crazy Jerome]

How much mobility does the BBEG have? How confining is the tower layout?

Given that he wants to delay 2 hours, there are two ways he can win. He can kill everyone in the tower as quickly as possible, then hang around. Or he can try to fight a running, delaying battle over 2 hours (hiding part of the time). Meanwhile, there are two ways the players/allies can win. They can rush the guy and maybe take him down, albeit with heavy losses on their side. Or they can keep him busy but not engage hard, while trying to mess up whatever is happening in two hours.

Of those options, the one that sounds the best to me is that they go after each other hammer and tongs at first, but once substantial damage is done, the BBEG switches to delaying tactics. Preferably, the players would already know about the 2 hour thing, and thus would recognize the delay for what it is. If they are sufficiently beat up, they might then decide to mess up his plans instead of him personally. How that might play is as a whole adventure, with increasingly frazzled versions of the BBEG as the encounter every time: A tower chase in three acts.

Of course, that is all out the window if the tower environment is too closed to make that work.

 

[On Puget Sound]

Reymus should defeat them easily. Almost trivially. But it's a waste of potential to kill such resourceful enemies (the classic villainous overconfidence).

So after capturing some and probably killing a few, he explains what use he has for them, and why they have no choice but to cooperate. Either he has a big bargaining chip (if you want this village to survive...), or unassailable logic (yes, I'm evil, but I'm all that stands between the world and a full-scale Far Realm invasion), or a compulsion, magic or otherwise (you may notice you're all wearing collars. If I give the command, or if you tinker with them, or if I die, they explode), or even a social reason (our society needs the Grey Guards as a symbol, it's all that stops the Margovians and Kilindians from killing each other over their ancient feuds. If you expose me, the country will erupt in disastrous civil war).

Then he sends them on their way, to do something that is kind of sort of heroic but which they know is also serving Reymus' ends, and giving them a few more levels to work out a solution to the problem.

 

[Herobizkit]

How about, if the PCs die, they end up on some other plane, maybe the Shadowfell, maybe something Ravenloft, but definitely something that is bleak and gives one a sense of hopelessness?

I can see it now. Purple sand, black sky, the howl of a cold wind but no wind is felt... like a desert.

Whatever it is, it's alien and should have some rules of nature that are different than a "standard" Earth. I'm not suggesting this from a sci-fi point-of-view, but certain basic truths should not be taken for granted in this place.

 

[Quickleaf]

[MENTION=2]Piratecat[/MENTION]
If you decide to go the Aid Another route, I suggest statting up "ally groups" (e.g. Unit of 8 archers) and/or "group encounter powers" (eg. Calling in the trebuchets). This will make how the PCs leverage their larger fighting force a decisive issue in the battle, and is more interesting than aiding either attack or defense.

What's Reymus' plan? While the PCs and Reymus might like nothing better than to kick the tar out of each, the plan sounds like it's the centerpiece of the conflict. In Reymus' shoes I would blow up whatever part of the tower the PCs are in, at the very least cutting them off from disarming the mcguffin or what have you.

 

[Quickleaf]

I'm not sure why people are saying a +9 EL elite is unbeatable; IME PCs can hit on-level foes on around a 6+, with buffs, Heroic Effort et al they should be able to handle a 15+ ok.

My party is closer to 8+ for equal level foes, so I'd guess with a foe 9 levels above them they'd have about 20% chance to hit. The amount of grind - swinging and missing - in that fight would suck, even if they were able to beat him in the end.

 

[S'mon]

My party is closer to 8+ for equal level foes, so I'd guess with a foe 9 levels above them they'd have about 20% chance to hit. The amount of grind - swinging and missing - in that fight would suck, even if they were able to beat him in the end.

With the BBEG statted as a lone PC, I think it'll be far more swingy than grindy. The PCs will struggle to hit, especially as he's a Defender, but if they do hit a few times he'll only have around 150 hp or so, so he could go down fast. 'Damage on a miss' effects will also come in very handy. And I'd expect every PC attack to be an Encounter or Daily. Unfortunately for the PCs, same goes for the attacks on them - Remus should be able to take a PC down in 2 rounds at most, or 1 round with Encounter-AP-Daily.

Like I said, it will feel very like a 3e boss fight, not a 4e fight.

 

[KarinsDad]

With the BBEG statted as a lone PC, I think it'll be far more swingy than grindy. The PCs will struggle to hit, especially as he's a Defender, but if they do hit a few times he'll only have around 150 hp or so, so he could go down fast. 'Damage on a miss' effects will also come in very handy. And I'd expect every PC attack to be an Encounter or Daily. Unfortunately for the PCs, same goes for the attacks on them - Remus should be able to take a PC down in 2 rounds at most, or 1 round with Encounter-AP-Daily.

Like I said, it will feel very like a 3e boss fight, not a 4e fight.

Well, it depends on what PC means by him being statted as a lone PC.

If he means that he is entirely statted as a PC, then you are correct. He really won't have enough hit points to stand up to the PCs and PC will find out why a DM never stats an NPC with the full PC rules. 3 lucky striker hits and the BBEG is down. This guy won't last 3 full rounds if the PCs focus every single one of their attacks on him and ignore his allies.


If PC means that his powers and possibly his ability scores are statted as a PC, but the rest of him is statted as a 22 level elite, then that's different.

A level 22 Elite typically has 400 to 500 hit points. He does 30+ points per attack, not the 40+ that a PC Fighter might do at that level (but, with multiple close burst 1 attacks). If PC stats his attacks as normal PC Fighter attacks with a cool magic weapon and feats and such, this guy will probably do more damage. The PCs that hit on a 6 at level one often do so because they have Expertise added already. Those PCs lose 10, not 9, to hit the BBEG and need a 16 to hit. Other PCs need an 18 or even a 19 to hit.

PC would be crazy to write this guy up completely as a 22 level Fighter. One critical by a striker and this guy is bloodied. Action Economy will wipe this guy out in 3 rounds.

As a 22 level Elite, though, this guy will probably stand up to 10 to 12 rounds or so from the PCs. But, the PCs will be throwing the kitchen sink at this guy. Sure, he'll be hitting 1 to 3 of them every round for 30 points of damage, but with 80 to 100 hit points each, heals, and resists and such, he'll probably need to wade through 600 to 700 hit points to take out the PCs in those same 10 to 12 rounds. That's 50 to 70 average assuming that the party controller doesn't turn him into a frog for a round. The BBEG needs to be attacking at least 2 PCs (and not PC allies) every round. The PCs have to be doing 400 to 500 points of damage in those 10 to 12 rounds, or 33 to 50 points per round. That's about 2 successful PC hits or 1 strong PC striker hit per round.

All in all, if PC gives the BBEG PC powers, but stats him mostly as a NPC, this will be one memorable fight. The NPC allies give the PCs a serious edge, so PC will need to negate that with some BBEG allies.

 

[S'mon]

PC would be crazy to write this guy up completely as a 22 level Fighter. One critical by a striker and this guy is bloodied. Action Economy will wipe this guy out in 3 rounds.

I dunno, as a player I'd probably rather nail the guy in 3 hectic rounds than grind through 10-12, which could be a couple hours of play.

 

[Piratecat]

... unassailable logic (yes, I'm evil, but I'm all that stands between the world and a full-scale Far Realm invasion)...

Sadly, he's sort of behind it. He's ushering in psychic monstrosities that live in mirror reflections and which are possessing people. The tower roof is full of egg sacks (albeit ones that can only be seen through a mirror), and Reymus is trying to buy a little time for them to hatch. It's not critical to his plan, though, and he can write them off if worse comes to worse. Still, he firmly believes that he always wins. Always. It's a flaw.

This thread is fantastic. Because of you folk, I'm beginning to see the structure of the fight. I think stating him as a complex solo (possibly with reduced hp, and definitely with boosted damage) is the right approach. I'll post my builds later, once I have time to think about them a bit more.